Have planer, do I need jointer and what size?
#31
Ok, more replies, didn't expect this thread to be big! Good thing.
My local shops, I know of two, have (recently had, not sure right now though) nice pricing for rough lumber, hence the idea to save _big_ on investing in $$$ tools which I will retain for next home (or for my kids) or some other project. Saves at least the price for the tools as I calculated compare to if I had the same lumber already S4S. Simple math.
The idea of helical with angled bits it to "shear" a piece which should create less resistance, hence less power, noise and better quality. This is in theory, as I haven't used any to compare. But the idea sounds nice. It is just that helical the head alone is running in $300+ range.
I started sensing that people who used jointer mostly favor one. Those who had tight spaces and got rid of one, mostly would go other tools. Those who didn't use it or had good experience with sled and planer - favor that option. And those using #8 would say to start with hand tools first - gives real feel and experience. No one can disagree with any of the opinions. But the whole quest was to find out the rationale for me given the context of my needs and the ability to decide whether I want/need one or not. I can afford one, period. Should I?
Without context this is pointless question. It goes like this - I know I will be able to flatten a piece using planer and sled, but the quality of this option is what I am not able to predict and I would have to compare it to work done by jointer by me - which I don't have yet, so deciding on my own isn't really an option - I would have to end up owning jointer for this, so asking is no point. Also the amount of time it takes to use planer with sled compared to jointer assuming the same quality can be obtained - is this worth the cash spent or is this worth cash saved? If I can join say 1 side in 5 minutes (or 50 if you will) with jointer and similar result done in 5 hours (or 50 if you will) by planer with sled - I will go with jointer. If the time diff is maybe 3x (not 60x), again assuming the same quality - then jointer is out of picture. I hope you see where I am going.
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#32
"The idea of helical with angled bits it to "shear" a piece which should create less resistance, hence less power, noise and better quality. This is in theory, as I haven't used any to compare. But the idea sounds nice. It is just that helical the head alone is running in $300+ range."

I do have a comparison with my planer since I ran it for years before getting the helical cutterhead. (Dewalt 735). With straight knives, you get the little tiny ripples as expected. Since it's a two speed planer, these are easy to sand out. The noise of the planer running without any boards is pretty high with the chip fan going. Running a board with straight knives is loud, thats for sure. I also had to change out the knives somewhat often. Each set has two sides and I probably went through 5-6 sets over 11 years of hobby use (two cutting edges per set).

The helical head leaves a smoother surface, but still requires some sanding. It is much quieter with the helical head when running boards. The noise is now about the same whether a board is running through or not. I also have yet to rotate any of the cutters. I've had the helical head for about a year. I got the Grizzly head instead of the Shelix because it was in stock.

I will also say that the helical head has much less tear out. I used to hate curly maple because of the tear out. Now I love the stuff since it's no longer an issue.

I know this isn't a recommendation, but I thought a comparison between the two in the same machine would be helpful. Like I say, I'm on the fence about whether I would want it in a jointer. If the cost was the same, I would be all for it.

"No one can disagree with any of the opinions."

There is definitely more than one correct way to flatten a board. Can you try the various methods somewhere? I know Woodcraft usually has a small shop for classes.
Project Website  Adding new stuff all of the time.
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#33
I had a 6" jointer for many years. It was great, but I had to do a lot of work arounds for 6" plus wide boards. Now I have an 8" and no desire to go any bigger. YMMV, etc. etc. 

Most direct answer I can give is this- you NEED a jointer, 6" minimum. Beyond that, it's more up to your personal space, time, budget factors if you want to go bigger, rehab an old one, etc.
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#34
The 14" jointer I mentioned sits as part of a 14" J/P combination machine.  It takes up no more space than an 8" jointer.  If you make a couple of projects a year a planer sled will work fine to get lumber flat.  I you plan to build a project every month, or even more frequently, you really, really, really want a jointer.  What people who use planer sleds aren't mentioning is that is you want to run an 8' board through their planer you need an 8' or longer planer sled and the means to support it going into and out of the machine.  Think about the space that takes up, even if only temporarily.  And then you have to have the space to store that monster sled.  

Also, it may not matter but just so you are informed, a helical head requires more power than the same size head with straight knives.  Seems counterintuitive, but so it is.
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#35
(12-10-2021, 09:12 AM)jteneyck Wrote:   If you make a couple of projects a year a planer sled will work fine to get lumber flat.  I you plan to build a project every month, or even more frequently, you really, really, really want a jointer.  What people who use planer sleds aren't mentioning is that is you want to run an 8' board through their planer you need an 8' or longer planer sled and the means to support it going into and out of the machine.  Think about the space that takes up, even if only temporarily.  And then you have to have the space to store that monster sled.  
Yes and no.

I agree with you that anyone building projects with rough lumber regularly should have a jointer in their shop for sure. The convenience factor is worth it.

But for hobbyists who build just several rough lumber based furniture projects, say 4 or 5 a year, the planer approach isn't as bad as it sounds.

No, the sled (fixed or adjustable) doesn't take up as much as even a small jointer in terms of footprint. It's like saying the tracks for a tracksaw are a monster accessory. A sled can take up no more space than a single rough lumber plank. In fact, I usually place my sleds (6', the other one is 4-1/2' my go to sled) with my rough lumber together as a stack. To mill lumber, all one needs is the planer, sled and two roller stands (which one will need anyway when thicknessing any long boards).

I can understand why people are uptight about the idea of dimensioning lumber without a jointer. The idea is unconventional, and is seen to be cumbersome. I thought so too until I started using it. I now prepare stock for 2 to 3 projects at a time, keeping the setup time to a minimum, and that means I have enough dimensioned stock for half of the year after each run.

If there's any complaint, it's that I wear out the planer blades a lot quicker than in the old days when I had the jointer. I have learned to deal with that by sharpening the blades a few times following the technique covered in one of the Fine Woodworking issues before replacing them. 

Simon
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#36
(12-09-2021, 11:26 PM)lincmercguy Wrote: "I do have a comparison with my planer"

"There is definitely more than one correct way to flatten a board. Can you try the various methods somewhere? I know Woodcraft usually has a small shop for classes."
So you can install helical into deWalt planner? How much is the head for 12 or 12.5 " ?

I am afraid I do not have time for classes, so far I managed to do what I can do by myself and with ytube
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#37
I'm not sure on the other models. You can look on the Grizzly and Shelix websites for your model. Mine was about $400, so probably somewhere around there. For me it was worth it, but you probably want to consider whether or not you'll keep your current planer for the long term.
Project Website  Adding new stuff all of the time.
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#38
Whether you use a jointer, planer sled, shims and hot glue, or a hand plane, the goal is to get one side flat enough to have solid enough contact on the bed as it passes through the planer to avoid compression or twisting.  The board dictates how flat is flat enough.  12/4 hard maple just needs to be flat enough not to wobble, while a 1/2" thick board needs to be almost perfectly flat.

I've been a hobby woodworker for over 30 years and work almost exclusively in rough stock.  Until I moved into a larger shop,  didn't own a jointer until 3 years ago.  Added that when I came across a deal I couldn't pass up on someone upgrading from his 6" helical head Powermatic jointer.  I have no intention to go bigger, since my main reason for getting it was the speed you can edge joint a long board vs a hand plane.  Over the years I've tried most every method to get a flat side in preparation for the planer.  The one method I kept coming back to that takes of the least amount of space in a small shop, and provides consistent results in acceptable time turned out to be a hand plane.  A #5 jack plane with a  heavily camber blade, a 4' straight edge, a couple of winding sticks, and some practice can actually be pretty efficient and quick.

My belief in that method was tested in a recent project my adult son wanted to build.  He wanted a decent looking bookshelf and picked out some of my rough sawn cherry to build it with.  Since he only has an interest in woodworking recently, I took the role of safety officer and advisor.  The 4 square legs for the bookshelf were milled out of 8/4 stock.  I guided him as to how to prep the legs using the jointer, planer, and the table saw.  After completing the stock prep for the legs and all the styles and rails using that method, he was ready to prep the top and the 3 shelves.  The board he picked would require him to rip it down to three strips to fit the jointer.  That's not acceptable in my shop.  I used it as an opportunity to show him how to prep the wide boards using a hand plane, planer, and table saw.  Cutting the board a little longer than needed for each shelf and then using the jack plane, he had 4 boards flat enough to run through the planer.  These boards were not flat to begin with each had some twist and a couple had bowed.  After running one side through the planer, on a couple of boards he needed to make some minor adjustment on the machine planed side, with a hand plane and flip it over a run it again through the planer.

After he had 4 flat, square boards to make his tops and shelves I pointed out how that didn't take much longer than the time he spent prepping the rest of the material using a jointer.  The ability to flatten with hand tools does give you better understanding of grain direction, the importance of only flatten a board that is long enough for what you need, and what a sharp blade can do quickly.

If you told me I had to choose between a planer or a jointer, I would dump the jointer and you would have to pry my planer out of my dead hands.
John
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#39
(12-11-2021, 08:22 AM)jstraw Wrote: The board he picked would require him to rip it down to three strips to fit the jointer.  That's not acceptable in my shop.  I used it as an opportunity to show him how to prep the wide boards using a hand plane, planer, and table saw. 

Cutting the board a little longer than needed for each shelf and then using the jack plane,

You touched on two important points.

Ripping a perfect, wide board into narrow pieces in order to flatten it on a jointer is as worse as painting a walnut tabletop. I've seen it offered as a "solution" in social media. I have never done it and I'll never do it.

Don't crosscut boards to their final lengths in the dimensioning stage. Always leave the rough board's ends as is until after the board is planed. Most lunchbox thickness planers will cause snips, even tiny ones. Often, the snips are trimmed away when the rough ends are squared.

Removing the diagonal high points on a twisted board with a handplane will greatly reduce the no. of passes whether one uses a jointer or a planer/sled to handle them. But many woodworkers don't even have a decent handplane.

To sum up my view: For amateurs, it's nice (but not essential ) to have both the jointer and planer in the shop. You can live without the jointer but you can't without the thickness planer.........unless you develop hand skills to go unplugged.

Final suggestion for the OP: When you contact the seller, check with him or her if he/she is willing to demonstrate edge jointing/flattening one side of the board (you provide the board say 4" wide 4' long) with the machine. This way, you can tell if the machine can do the job it's supposed to do. For a seasoned jointer user, it takes no more than 4 or 5 minutes to do the demo. if the machine is properly set.

Simon
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#40
OP mentions saving money by buying rough cut lumber. Mill that has a store near me will joint one face at a nominal charge. It was $0.09 per BF at 100 BF, up to 35” wide in 2019, haven’t done it since. That 100 BF can be mixed species, same with their break point on lumber pricing. Might be worth checking your local area, and be a good compromise at least for a time. I have a 6” jointer, but thought the little bit I paid for that service was a bargain. Still gotta plane both surfaces, but was easy to go straight to planer. They’ll straight rip one edge too, but that’s easy enough to with a table saw sled or a track saw.
Earl
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