diamond abrasive lapping fluid

[tablesawtom]

Diamond lapping fluid is basically water soluble coolant. It is coolant that is mixed with water and it gives the water some added features. But some of the problems with it is it get stronger as the water evaporates and it needs to be tested often. Other problems that can arise are coolant allergies that develop over time. The the major problem is a residue is left behind and that will cling to a surface in the form of a with a film. and that will need to be cleaned off before the surface can be used again.

To get to the point is can be a sticky mess that needs to be cleaned with water and a brush, and it takes time to dissolve. And the finer the grit easier the easier it is for the coolant to load up around the diamonds.

People think they need it because one of the selling points is it stops the metal from rusting. And it will do that. but the mess left over from repeated use gets harder and harder to clean off.

Just plain water is a better lapping medium. The plate can be cleaned very easily with water after use and after wiping it down with a clean paper towel, I finish it off with a hot air gun or a hair drier. Water can't cause rusting where there it no water

The coolant cost $13 for a 3.4 once bottle and will be gone shortly. My Wagner hot air gun was about $30 and I have been using it for lots of different purposes for over the last 5 years. I use it to dry my diamond lapping plate and in that time frame, no hint of rust.

You can run out of the lapping fluid but water should always be available. Just plain water also works great on water stones. Same medium same clean up practices.  Your wife's hair drier will also work great, just don't tell her about it if you want to keep on living.


Tom

[AztecKing]

I use Simple Green on my diamond stones and never have any rusting issues.  Thanks for the info on lapping fluid.

Jeff

[AHill]

I recently upgraded my knife sharpening kit with a system that uses diamond stones. I researched quite a bit to see what people use as a honing fluid and here's my take:

Krud Kutter - Recommended by BestSharpeningStones.com. I recently purchased a can. We'll see how it does.
Windex - does an excellent job of floating the swarf and keeping the stones clean as well. Disadvantage is it evaporates quickly
Water with a drop of dishwashing soap - The soap reduces the surface tension of the water, helping the water to float the swarf. Must be dried after use or the residual swarf will rust.
Kerosene - Old school honing fluid for Oil Stones, but not necessary for diamond stones. Kerosene will fill the pores of an oil stone to float the swarf. Not necessary on diamond stones since they don't have pores.
Trend Diamond Stone Honing Fluid - consensus is it doesn't work any better than other alternatives, and it's quite expensive.
WD40 - Some say it works well. Others don't like that it displaces water, and could interfere with cleaning the stone later.
Mineral Oil - Works well to float the swarf, but it's a lubricant as well, so it'll reduce the effectiveness of the stone. (Don't use a hardening oil like cooking oil.)
LA's Awesome Cleaner - cheap, and floats the swarf.

One other caution to note. Some diamond stones use nickel as the substrate. Ammonia (e.g. Windex) will degrade the nickel, weakening it's bind on the diamonds. Windex contains ammonia, but they do sell an ammonia free version intended for car windows.


Here is a link to an older thread here that discusses the same subject:
https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7345956

[tablesawtom]

I recently upgraded my knife sharpening kit with a system that uses diamond stones.  I researched quite a bit to see what people use as a honing fluid and here's my take:

Krud Kutter - Recommended by BestSharpeningStones.com.  I recently purchased a can.  We'll see how it does.
Windex - does an excellent job of floating the swarf and keeping the stones clean as well.  Disadvantage is it evaporates quickly
Water with a drop of dishwashing soap - The soap reduces the surface tension of the water, helping the water to float the swarf.  Must be dried after use or the residual swarf will rust.
Kerosene - Old school honing fluid for Oil Stones, but not necessary for diamond stones.  Kerosene will fill the pores of an oil stone to float the swarf.  Not necessary on diamond stones since they don't have pores.
Trend Diamond Stone Honing Fluid - consensus is it doesn't work any better than other alternatives, and it's quite expensive.
WD40 - Some say it works well.  Others don't like that it displaces water, and could interfere with cleaning the stone later.
Mineral Oil - Works well to float the swarf, but it's a lubricant as well, so it'll reduce the effectiveness of the stone.  (Don't use a hardening oil like cooking oil.)
LA's Awesome Cleaner - cheap, and floats the swarf.

One other caution to note.  Some diamond stones use nickel as the substrate.  Ammonia (e.g. Windex) will degrade the nickel, weakening it's bind on the diamonds.  Windex contains ammonia, but they do sell an ammonia free version intended for car windows.


Here is a link to an older thread here that discusses the same subject:
https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7345956

If nickel is used as a substrate then there is no need dry the diamond stone ( plate) because diamonds and nickel do not rust. Therefore the reason for the lapping fluid being needed to keep  the plate from rusting is false information. You are correct about the residual swarf rusting but can be cleaned off when the plate is dry.

I use a 1000 grit water stone, then a 3000 grit water stone, followed with a 8000 grit stone and finally a leather wheel charged with a lapping compound.  I use water on the water stones because I believe the name water stone implies  that that water is to be used as a lubricating medium. I have a 300-1000 grid diamond plate but mostly I use the 300 grit side it to flatten my stones. And I feel I do not want to contaminate my 3000 grit stone with residue from my 1000 grit stone and the 8000 the same way. Nor do I want to contaminate my stones with Krud cleaner, dish washing soap, kerosene, honing fluid, WD40, mineral oil or LA"S cleaner. I use plain old ordinary soft water. Give me a brake if you are going to get technical about distilled water.

Since when doing the final sharpening, one is only dealing with a micro bevel, it doesn't take long, and I find I do my touch up more with stone than diamond plates, I use water only. At least 5 times as much. One can not contaminate a surface if you do not use a decontaminate. 

Personally I use water and hot air on my diamond plater because I like to put it away clean and dry ready for the next use. Can I put in a drop of dish soap? Yes, but why.

[tablesawtom]

Ammonia (e.g. Windex) will degrade the nickel, weakening it's bind on the diamonds.  Windex contains ammonia, but they do sell an ammonia free version intended for car windows.

If I were a company selling blade cleaning fluids that is exactly the propaganda I would spread. That information is at least 50 years old. The reason was and is to stop people from using easy off oven cleaner and to use their product instead. In other wards scare people out of using a product.  It is funny how it doesn't hurt an oven but it does attack silver solder and now nickel. I believe Nickel is one of the metals used in a thermostat, but somehow it doesn't effect an ovens thermostat. Maybe it is a special form of Nickel. That rates right up there with freon 12 is causing holes in the ozone layer. DuPont's 17 year patent ran out and they needed another refrigerant . After the prices' went up at east 4 times and the fact that now they can charge you to get rid of a refrigerator. the problem went away. Ever wonder about the fact that everything is known to cause cancer to the state of California.( Proposition whatever) There is nothing about being harmful to Nickel or silver solder on the ammonia bottle. If it was true they would have to put it in print right on the bottle. Maybe there is no proof or study  that it does in fact confirm that ammonia weakens the bond of Nickel and silver solder

It is easy to claim and if it is repeated enough everyone believes it so it must be true. But there is no proof that it does. Just because everyone thinks it it true doesn't make it true. And linking to a discussion on this forum doesn't make it true either. How about proof from a reliable source of a study to as to the effects that ammonia has on either Nickel or silver solder. 

I have been using a mixture of 1 part ammonia and 3 parts water to clean my saw blades for 50 years. and I have sent several at a time back to Forrest for Inspection, sharpening and checking for run out before sending them back . And not once has anything ever be stated  about the condition their silver soldered. tips. And after having a tip or two replaced could I tell which ones were old and which ones are new? No

Tom

[Timberwolf]

Ammonia (e.g. Windex) will degrade the nickel, weakening it's bind on the diamonds.  Windex contains ammonia, but they do sell an ammonia free version intended for car windows.

If I were a company selling blade cleaning fluids that is exactly the propaganda I would spread. That information is at least 50 years old. The reason was and is to stop people from using easy off oven cleaner and to use their product instead. In other wards scare people out of using a product.  It is funny how it doesn't hurt an oven but it does attack silver solder and now nickel. I believe Nickel is one of the metals used in a thermostat, but somehow it doesn't effect an ovens thermostat. Maybe it is a special form of Nickel. That rates right up there with freon 12 is causing holes in the ozone layer. DuPont's 17 year patent ran out and they needed another refrigerant . After the prices' went up at east 4 times and the fact that now they can charge you to get rid of a refrigerator. the problem went away. Ever wonder about the fact that everything is known to cause cancer to the state of California.( Proposition whatever) There is nothing about being harmful to Nickel or silver solder on the ammonia bottle. If it was true they would have to put it in print right on the bottle. Maybe there is no proof or study  that it does in fact confirm that ammonia weakens the bond of Nickel and silver solder

It is easy to claim and if it is repeated enough everyone believes it so it must be true. But there is no proof that it does. Just because everyone thinks it it true doesn't make it true. And linking to a discussion on this forum doesn't make it true either. How about proof from a reliable source of a study to as to the effects that ammonia has on either Nickel or silver solder. 

I have been using a mixture of 1 part ammonia and 3 parts water to clean my saw blades for 50 years. and I have sent several at a time back to Forrest for Inspection, sharpening and checking for run out before sending them back . And not once has anything ever be stated  about the condition their silver soldered. tips. And after having a tip or two replaced could I tell which ones were old and which ones are new? No

Tom

............................
And not once has anything ever be stated about the condition their silver soldered. tips.

IMO, that is because it has zero effect on SILVER solder...MANY people confuse the term "SILVER BEARING SOLDER" with TRUE silver solder which is an alloy made up of copper and different amounts of pure silver. SBS is weak, and contains a small amount of silver along with tin and lead, and possibly zinc. It melts at temps around 450/550* and "true" silver solder melts at temps at twice that and higher...Jewelry repairmen buy it in various melting degrees..It allows the jeweler to solder one end of a piece of jewelry with a "lower melt" solder so as not to melt the joints on the objects that were previously soldered with a higher temperature solder. You can buy Gold solder with the same features..made to solder 10K. 14K and 18K...The solder must melt at a lower temperature than the parent metal.

[tablesawtom]

I am not sure what you mean about no one ever mentioning their silver soldered tips.  It was stated that ammonia will degrade Nickel And that Windex contains ammonia therefore implying that it shouldn't be used. I took it a step farther because easy off oven cleaner also contains ammonia and shouldn't be used to clean the pitch off from saw blades because it destroys the solder bond. No real proof but presented as unrefutably fact. Great marketing.

Personally I don't use easy off oven cleaner because I don't like the strong smell, but there is no proof to the claim that it will do harm to a saw blade if it is used. But it is passed on as fact. Even a half truth is false information.  

 Fact, I never even thought about using Windex on my diamond stone. If I had just spent $100 on a diamond plate and I read that I would be scared to death to use Windex because it would degrade my nickel bond. And most of the people on this forum don't even have a clue as to what nickel is. I did consider the lapping fluid but knowing the problems it brings  ( mainly from experience with finding it dried on the surface grinder magnetic chuck) I decided against buying it. But it is great marketing for lapping fluid. I passed on the information about the hot air ( heat gun) because it dries the plate and helps to blow of any steel particles left on and it can be then put away clean and dry. What any one decides to do with that information is their choice

As far as what you wrote about SILVER solder you are 100 per cent correct. As I knew you would be. But I only know it in the high temperature form. I did not know about silver bearing solder, and I found that piece of information very interesting. And the way you presented it, I have no doubt that you 100 % correct this time also.

[Timberwolf]

I am not sure what you mean about no one ever mentioning their silver soldered tips.  It was stated that ammonia will degrade Nickel And that Windex contains ammonia therefore implying that it shouldn't be used. I took it a step farther because easy off oven cleaner also contains ammonia and shouldn't be used to clean the pitch off from saw blades because it destroys the solder bond. No real proof but presented as unrefutably fact. Great marketing.

Personally I don't use easy off oven cleaner because I don't like the strong smell, but there is no proof to the claim that it will do harm to a saw blade if it is used. But it is passed on as fact. Even a half truth is false information.  

 Fact, I never even thought about using Windex on my diamond stone. If I had just spent $100 on a diamond plate and I read that I would be scared to death to use Windex because it would degrade my nickel bond. And most of the people on this forum don't even have a clue as to what nickel is. I did consider the lapping fluid but knowing the problems it brings  ( mainly from experience with finding it dried on the surface grinder magnetic chuck) I decided against buying it. But it is great marketing for lapping fluid. I passed on the information about the hot air ( heat gun) because it dries the plate and helps to blow of any steel particles left on and it can be then put away clean and dry. What any one decides to do with that information is their choice

As far as what you wrote about SILVER solder you are 100 per cent correct. As I knew you would be. But I only know it in the high temperature form. I did not know about silver bearing solder, and I found that piece of information very interesting. And the way you presented it, I have no doubt that you 100 % correct this time also.

..................
Tom, as you and both know, EXPERIENCE is FIRST HAND knowledge...everything else is pretty much hearsay. Reading or talking about it is one thing, doing it is another! ..IMO, There is NO substitute for first hand experience!!!!

[wmickley]

..................
Tom, as you and both know, EXPERIENCE is FIRST HAND knowledge...everything else is pretty much hearsay. Reading or talking about it is one thing, doing it is another! ..IMO, There is NO substitute for first hand experience!!!!

This reminds me of something my chemistry teacher told me years ago:

Most people don't really understand chemistry. We can't put F's on all their report cards , but they really don't get it.

Some people use their cars their cell phones and watch TV, go to the doctor for an MRI or an EKG or for drugs, and they say scientists don't know anything.

[AHill]

If nickel is used as a substrate then there is no need dry the diamond stone ( plate) because diamonds and nickel do not rust. Therefore the reason for the lapping fluid being needed to keep  the plate from rusting is false information. You are correct about the residual swarf rusting but can be cleaned off when the plate is dry.

I use a 1000 grit water stone, then a 3000 grit water stone, followed with a 8000 grit stone and finally a leather wheel charged with a lapping compound.  I use water on the water stones because I believe the name water stone implies  that that water is to be used as a lubricating medium. I have a 300-1000 grid diamond plate but mostly I use the 300 grit side it to flatten my stones. And I feel I do not want to contaminate my 3000 grit stone with residue from my 1000 grit stone and the 8000 the same way. Nor do I want to contaminate my stones with Krud cleaner, dish washing soap, kerosene, honing fluid, WD40, mineral oil or LA"S cleaner. I use plain old ordinary soft water. Give me a brake if you are going to get technical about distilled water.

Since when doing the final sharpening, one is only dealing with a micro bevel, it doesn't take long, and I find I do my touch up more with stone than diamond plates, I use water only. At least 5 times as much. One can not contaminate a surface if you do not use a decontaminate. 

Personally I use water and hot air on my diamond plater because I like to put it away clean and dry ready for the next use. Can I put in a drop of dish soap? Yes, but why.

First of all, don't shoot the messenger.  I merely collated what I found in other posts and other material.  I never said the substrate of a diamond stone would rust.  If not dried, it would be the retained metal swarf from sharpening that would rust (which I did stated in my post!).  

Ammonium hydroxide (the "ammonia" in Windex) will not corrode most nickel-based alloys.  Note I said alloys.  Pure nickel is susceptible to corrosion by ammonium hydroxide.  (See page 21 in the attached study on corrosion of nickel based alloys.)  The more exposure, the more likely something will degrade the bonds.  I don't know what the concentration of ammonium hydroxide is in Windex.  For those using original formula Windex on diamond stones without any discernable effect, more power to you.  

DMT recommends cleaning their diamond stones either by flushing with water, scrubbing with mild kitchen abrasive cleanser ("anything like Comet or Ajax will work").  DMT also recommends not using oil as a lubricant.  From DMT:  "DMT recommends you use DMT products dry or with water only. Although mineral oil or WD40 will not harm the DMT products, they can impede sharpening if used in excess and can damage the sharpener over time if not properly cleaned/removed from the sharpener." 

The purpose of putting a drop of dish soap in the water used as a lubricant is to reduce the surface tension of the water, which helps to float the swarf compared to plain water.  Again, I'm not advocating for or against adding dish soap to any water used in sharpening with diamond stones.  I'm just stating the purpose behind some folks' preference for it, and the science behind why they prefer it.

https://nickelinstitute.org/media/4685/n...kalies.pdf
https://www.dmtsharp.com/resources/dmtr-...-sharpener