Staring at the Stairs and Making a Plan

[lincmercguy]

I'm looking to start the next project and clean up from the late 70's and whoever did this remodel.  I've only messed with deck stairs, but I think I have a plan partially formulated.  

Whoever did the flooring didn't account for the change in height.  I need to raise each stair tread 5/8" - 3/4" to eliminate the step height difference at the top and bottom stairs of each set.  I'm also going to make the gaps in the balusters proper since they are obviously too wide now.  The plastic lattice was my cheapo temporary solution from five years ago when we moved in.  My kids were 2 and 5 at the time and discovered they could fit between them.  I needed a fast solution before my tools were unpacked and workspace setup.

Here's my plan with questions along with way and a few gaps.  Let me know what you all think.

1. Remove tile from landing, to be replaced later.

2. screw the treads and risers together to make them more solid.  I can access underneath both sets..

3. Cut the existing tread bullnoses back to the existing risers.

4. Remove old rails/balusters/posts.

5. On upper half, cut the existing tread exposed side back to the stringer, where the they are notched out currently.  Or should I just fill in the notches?

6. Attach a new block to lengthen each tread for support of the new balusters.  I would use dominos/pocket hole screws/glue.

7. Attach an oak re-tread tread to each stair tread on upper and lower sections.  This would cover the new block as well.  Should I attach with construction adhesive, screws, or both?

8. Back with a 1/4" MDF panel over the riser that will be painted to match the trim in the end.

9. Fabricate and attach oak end cap to the upper treads to match style.

10. Stain and polyurethane oak to match the laminate floors on the upper level.  Should I use floor polyurethane for this?  I'm assuming so.  Would it make more sense to do this at the end to cut down the amount of time the stairs have no rails?

11. Install new posts at the landing and upper level.  These will be oak, stained to match the top of the mantel and bookshelf I built earlier.

12. Install metal balusters and handrail together.  I'm assuming that the balusters are drilled into the bottom of the handrail and this has to be done at the same time? I need to get a couple samples from the store for these parts.  Would it make sense to get a metal chop saw to cut the balusters?  I've been thinking about getting one anyway.

13. What can I do to make the exposed part of the stringers look better on both the top edges and side of the upper set?  They're somewhat rough 2x material.  Should I sand them down before repainting? Should I find some way to cover them?

14. Replace baseboard trim with something less obnoxious.  The baseboard trim will be painted white as well.

15. Retile landing.

   

   

   

   

[Snipe Hunter]

I'm looking to start the next project and clean up from the late 70's and whoever did this remodel.  I've only messed with deck stairs, but I think I have a plan partially formulated.  

Whoever did the flooring didn't account for the change in height.  I need to raise each stair tread 5/8" - 3/4" to eliminate the step height difference at the top and bottom stairs of each set.  I'm also going to make the gaps in the balusters proper since they are obviously too wide now.  The plastic lattice was my cheapo temporary solution from five years ago when we moved in.  My kids were 2 and 5 at the time and discovered they could fit between them.  I needed a fast solution before my tools were unpacked and workspace setup.

Here's my plan with questions along with way and a few gaps.  Let me know what you all think.

1. Remove tile from landing, to be replaced later.

2. screw the treads and risers together to make them more solid.  I can access underneath both sets..

3. Cut the existing tread bullnoses back to the existing risers.

4. Remove old rails/balusters/posts.

5. On upper half, cut the existing tread exposed side back to the stringer, where the they are notched out currently.  Or should I just fill in the notches?

6. Attach a new block to lengthen each tread for support of the new balusters.  I would use dominos/pocket hole screws/glue.

7. Attach an oak re-tread tread to each stair tread on upper and lower sections.  This would cover the new block as well.  Should I attach with construction adhesive, screws, or both?

8. Back with a 1/4" MDF panel over the riser that will be painted to match the trim in the end.

9. Fabricate and attach oak end cap to the upper treads to match style.

10. Stain and polyurethane oak to match the laminate floors on the upper level.  Should I use floor polyurethane for this?  I'm assuming so.  Would it make more sense to do this at the end to cut down the amount of time the stairs have no rails?

11. Install new posts at the landing and upper level.  These will be oak, stained to match the top of the mantel and bookshelf I built earlier.

12. Install metal balusters and handrail together.  I'm assuming that the balusters are drilled into the bottom of the handrail and this has to be done at the same time? I need to get a couple samples from the store for these parts.  Would it make sense to get a metal chop saw to cut the balusters?  I've been thinking about getting one anyway.

13. What can I do to make the exposed part of the stringers look better on both the top edges and side of the upper set?  They're somewhat rough 2x material.  Should I sand them down before repainting? Should I find some way to cover them?

14. Replace baseboard trim with something less obnoxious.  The baseboard trim will be painted white as well.

15. Retile landing.

I was in a similar situation. I figured to leave any existing would make a lot of tedious work and possibly sloppy work arounds. Although I did leave the side stringers. There was only side stringers, no center. The risers were fastened to both side stringers to give the treads support. These were particle board treads and risers and carpeted with a bit of flex when walked upon. The treads were set into routed dados in the stringers. I cut out and discarded all the treads leaving the ends of the treads in the dados. Discarded post and balusters but left the risers.  My stringers were also rough so I sanded with 60 grit and then skimmed them with the hot drywall mud and sanded them smooth. Once the new treads were in, I filled any exposed dados with hot drywall mud, sanded smooth and painted the stringers. 

My stairs were not level so I cut pine shims to level the risers. Used finish nails and glue to fasten the shims.

The stairs are 3 ft wide so I bought 4 ft wide treads. I cut all the treads a little longer than 3 ft. I used the cutoffs to make cleats that were screwed and glues to the 2 stringers. They had a notch in them to set a 2x4 on for added strength. The new treads would set on the cleats and 2x4 and on the risers. The treads were installed with construction adhesive and finish nails. I used 1/4" oak ply as a veneer over the existing particle board risers. A grove was cut under the bull nose of the new treads and a gap was left between the new treads and the existing risers so I could install the riser veneer. The risers veneer fastened with a little construction adhesive  and a few 1" brad nails to hold them in place.

Then I just rebuilt the rails and balusters.

I don't have a lot of pics of the project but hoping these will help.

Original treads and risers:


Shims on the Risers:



The cleats glued and screwed on the stingers:

[Snipe Hunter]

The 2x4 installed in the cleats:



I made a simple jig to measure the new stringers to fit. No 2 stringers were the same so I did my best to minimize any gaps between the stringers and treads.




Finished with Parks water based poly from HD. 6 coats with Minwax "Natural" stain. I used the same on the new handrails.
Installed oak hardwood flooring on the landing, finished the same:

[lincmercguy]

Good call on the skim coat, I might have to try that. If these were particle board, I would definitely replace them entirely. Mine are oak and are installed pretty well aside from the height issues.

[Snipe Hunter]

If you skim them, use the hot mud. It sets harder and is more durable.

[MstrCarpenter]

I think you're on the right track. Cut the treads flush with the risers and stringers and consider this your starting point (as in fairly accurate rough stringers). Next you'll need 3/4" x ? x ? treads (not "cover treads"); some with bullnose returns on the left or right and some straight. These can be mostly finished before they're even cut. You'll need skirt boards for the open sides. I like to miter them for the risers (and it takes two saws) but you can purchase fancy 1/4"-3/8" thick scrolled returns that can be mitered individually to 1/4" birch ply. risers that will be painted. I also like oak scotia under the treads; a 1/2" forstner bit speeds up the cope on the open sides, and these can be finished in advanced too. (Do both ends of a 2' piece, miter to length when dry.) I use jigs like Snipe Hunter's, but they have one extra layer for a saw guide. I make the first cut on the jig with a new 7-1/4" metal cutting blade (think fine tooth, negative hook angle) and then put two layers of masking tape on the edge of the shoe. After locking the jig tight to the skirts, I clamp the jig to the tread and scribe lightly with a utility knife, and then the jig, still clamped in place, is my saw guide to cut a whisker larger for a press fit. For a straight run of closed stringers I'll use three jigs to save trips. They get const. adhesive and finish nails, filled just before the final coat.

You'll have to decide the best time to install the newel posts based on conditions to make them solid.  I've found a standard 3" newel does not need to be notched for the stringer. With 1/2" wallboard, a 3/4" skirt, and 1-1/2" bullnose returns, the return will be about 1/4" short of the newel. If the rail dies into a knee wall you may need to adjust, but make sure the tread protrudes enough for the balusters. 

If you'll be drilling the handrail for balusters, I would cut to fit and with it laying on the nosings, mark the locations on the treads and rail. (Installing the the rail first is a P.I.T.A.) you can use a pitch block (triangle of rise and run) or turn the rail over and end for end and drill plumb using a speed square as a guide.

Obviously there's a lot of tricks and techniques to trimming out staircases. One technique that removes a lot of the possibility of error is a semi-enclosed stringer. I'm not really fond of them when they get to be 6" or more thick. A skirt board on both sides of the balusters with slightly higher blocks between them is a clean professional look that accepts carpet well.

Like I said, you're on the right track. Just inspect some staircases you like to see where improvements can be made and keep us updated on your progress.

[lincmercguy]

I think you're on the right track. Cut the treads flush with the risers and stringers and consider this your starting point (as in fairly accurate rough stringers). Next you'll need 3/4" x ? x ? treads (not "cover treads"); some with bullnose returns on the left or right and some straight. These can be mostly finished before they're even cut. 

Thanks for the advice.  I consider myself a fairly accomplished woodworker, but this is the first time I've worked on stairs indoors.

The only issue I have with new full treads is the thickness.  Most of them I've seen are engineered and end up being 1" thick (3/4 glue ups with 1/8" veneer on top and bottom).  This is a bit too thick for what I need. 

I checked some out tonight, and had an idea.  They sell returns for these that can be attached.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Stairtek-RetroT...ad/3316912

This would be the right thickness, but I know it needs support up to the molding.  What if I just cut the nose off of the existing treads, then install these, butting the back of the molding up to the existing tread?  That should give it the support needed.

If you'll be drilling the handrail for balusters, I would cut to fit and with it laying on the nosings, mark the locations on the treads and rail. (Installing the the rail first is a P.I.T.A.) you can use a pitch block (triangle of rise and run) or turn the rail over and end for end and drill plumb using a speed square as a guide.

This makes sense.  What type of adhesive do you use to install the metal balusters, just construction adhesive?  Or should I use an epoxy adhesive?  I saw a kit that fits into the ends of the baluster and has a mechanism to screw it tight, but that seems unnecessary.

[Snipe Hunter]

This makes sense.  What type of adhesive do you use to install the metal balusters, just construction adhesive?  Or should I use an epoxy adhesive?  I saw a kit that fits into the ends of the baluster and has a mechanism to screw it tight, but that seems unnecessary.

I used metal balusters and drilled a hole about the same size as the baluster cross section measured caddy corner to corner. Then just squirted in a little liquid nails or whatever I had on hand at the time. Then slid matching covers over the holes. Worked fine.

[lincmercguy]

The balusters I've found have one end round, so I was thinking that could go into the rail side without the cap, but I'm not sure how much needs to be "in" the wood parts to be safe.

[MstrCarpenter]

Thanks for the advice.  I consider myself a fairly accomplished woodworker, but this is the first time I've worked on stairs indoors.

The only issue I have with new full treads is the thickness.  Most of them I've seen are engineered and end up being 1" thick (3/4 glue ups with 1/8" veneer on top and bottom).  This is a bit too thick for what I need. 

I checked some out tonight, and had an idea.  They sell returns for these that can be attached.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Stairtek-RetroT...ad/3316912

This would be the right thickness, but I know it needs support up to the molding.  What if I just cut the nose off of the existing treads, then install these, butting the back of the molding up to the existing tread?  That should give it the support needed.


This makes sense.  What type of adhesive do you use to install the metal balusters, just construction adhesive?  Or should I use an epoxy adhesive?  I saw a kit that fits into the ends of the baluster and has a mechanism to screw it tight, but that seems unnecessary.

[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"]"RED OAK TREAD 3/4"x11-1/2"x 42" 36.99/ EA" at my local lumberyard. (There's 36" and 48" too.) They offer some with returns already attached but their supplier uses a shaper to make the cut. The radius just doesn't look right when it's supposed to be a miter. In the shop I cut mine on the T.S. with a tall cross-cut fence. In the field I can clamp them together and use a skill saw. I just glue and clamp the returns on. ( If you're shaping your own; make them 2'+ long, and shape both ends.)[/font]

[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"]Assuming you're going to install an open riser skirt board to clean up the mess that someone left you, there is no additional support required for 3/4' treads. [/font]

[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"]To be honest, I've only installed metal balusters inside on two jobs. One had round tops, the other square, but used a 3/8" x 1-1/4" steel sub-rail and F.H. mach. screws into the top of the balusters. I never did get that square peg in round hole thing figured out. If you feel like sacrificing a mortiser chisel, you might not have to. [/font]

[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"]P.S. If you go the "drilling plumb on the treads" route, don't forget to flip it end for end or the holes will be horizontal. Experience is a cruel teacher![/font]
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, "Helvetica Neue", Arial, sans-serif, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", "Segoe UI Symbol", "Noto Color Emoji"] [/font]