Contracts
#11
I would like to see what anyone uses when building furniture if you don't mind sharing.

I'm also considering getting 2/3 of the estimated cost of material up front. What do you do?

Thanks

Jim
Jim
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#12
No one listens but if you need a contract you need a lawyer to check it or even write it.

I am not a lawyer but have a life long friend that is.  Law varies from state to state and one wrong word, LITERATELY one word can invalidate the whole contract.

Nothing wrong with working from someone else's contract but do not try to create you own without at least a review by someone that knows the law. You will never know you made a mistake till you actually need that contract to hold up.
I have found how much a boat is used is inversely related to how much it weighs.

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#13
(03-04-2022, 09:10 AM)Kudzu Wrote: No one listens but if you need a contract you need a lawyer to check it or even write it.

I am not a lawyer but have a life long friend that is.  Law varies from state to state and one wrong word, LITERATELY one word can invalidate the whole contract.

Nothing wrong with working from someone else's contract but do not try to create you own without at least a review by someone that knows the law. You will never know you made a mistake till you actually need that contract to hold up.

Good point
Jim
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#14
I'm a lawyer (or was - retired 8 years), and I have a little different view. One of the basic precepts of contract law is that the law makes every effort to give effect to to the inent of the parties to a contractual agreement. In other words, the law tries to give both parties the benefit of their agreement. The "contract" doesn't need to be in any particular format, even a verbal agreement can be a contract. The problem with verbal ageements is trying to determine what the parties intended after the fact when the parties can't agree on what was said or intended. That's why it's much better to reduce the agreement to writing up front. My view, which will probably draw the ire of many lawyers in this group, is that you can get along pretty well without a lawyer as long as you have a written agreement that is both (1) a simple and straightforward statement of the agreement, and (2) written in simple, everyday language without a lot of fancy words with lots of syallbles. Some complex agreements can't be reduced to a simple, plain-language statement, so it's a good idea to have a lawyer involved. But for most basic simple agreements, a hand written signed statement of the agreement will suffice.
A couple of things to watch out for: (1) the agreement should be balanced. It should state what each party will give and get from the agreement and not favor one party over the other - A will build a cabinet of high quality maple hardwood for B. (descrinbe the cabinet or attach plans). The cabinet will be finished with XYZ finish and exhibit commonly accepted standards of quality and appearance. A will deliver the cabinet to B within 30 days of the date of this agreement. In return, B agrees to pay A the contract price of X Dollars for the cabinet, payable as follows: 50% of the contract price on the date if this agreement and the balance upon delivery of the cabinet on or before the delivery date specified above. Signed and dated by the parties.
In this example the rights and obligations of both parties are set forth in plane language. A will build B a maple cabinet according to an agreed-upon plan or configuration and deliver it within 30 days. B will pay A an agreed-upon price for the work and will pay 50% of the price up front (to cover materials etc.) and the remainder upon delivery. The contract is "balanced", it does not favor one party over the other; it simply states the obligations of each party.
(2) As long as both parties deliver on their promises, the world moves along as it should. Problems arise when one party or the other defaults - fails to perform his part of the agreement - either A doesn't deliver or B doesn't pay or the cabinet doesn't meet B's understanding of "commonly accepted standards of quality and appearance". The contracting parties can deal with these issues in the contract by agreeing upon defaiult contingencies - what happens when one or the other doesn't meet his obligations - and including them in the written contract. But this gets complicated and may require the assistance of a lawyer. If default contingencies are not written into the contract and a dispute arises, lawyers, mediators and courts get involved to settle the dispute. Their purpose is to try to determine what the parties intended in the contract and to settle the dispute by giving both sides the benefit of their agreement as best they can. A simple, straight forward contract, stated in plane language makes this task much simpler.

Disclaimer: These comments are drawn from my observations over many years of practicing law. Do not consider them to be "legal advice". They are worth what you paid for them. If you have concerns about your legal rights, obligations and vulnerabilities in this area, consult an attorney.
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#15
(03-04-2022, 11:16 AM)Hank Knight Wrote: I'm a lawyer (or was - retired 8 years), and I have a little different view. One of the basic precepts of contract law is that the law makes every effort to give effect to to the inent of the parties to a contractual agreement. In other words, the law tries to give both parties the benefit of their agreement. The "contract" doesn't need to be in any particular format, even a verbal agreement can be a contract. The problem with verbal ageements is trying to determine what the parties intended after the fact when the parties can't agree on what was said or intended. That's why it's much better to reduce the agreement to writing up front. My view, which will probably draw the ire of many lawyers in this group, is that you can get along pretty well without a lawyer as long as you have a written agreement that is both (1) a simple and straightforward statement of the agreement, and (2) written in simple, everyday language without a lot of fancy words with lots of syallbles. Some complex agreements can't be reduced to a simple, plain-language statement, so it's a good idea to have a lawyer involved. But for most basic simple agreements, a hand written signed statement of the agreement will suffice.
A couple of things to watch out for: (1) the agreement should ba balanced. It should state what each party will give and get from the agreement and not favor one party over the other - A will build a cabinet of high quality maple hardwood for B. (descrinbe the cabinet or attach plans). The cabinet will be finished with XYZ finish and exhibit commonly accepted standards of quality and appearance. A will deliver the cabinet to B within 30 days of the date of this agreement. In return, B agrees to pay A  the contract price of X Dollars for the cabinet, payable as follows: 50% of the contract price on the date if this agreement and the balance upon delivery of the cabinet on or before the delivery date specified above.  Signed and dated by the parties.
In this example the rights and obligations of both parties are set forth in plane language. A will build B a maple cabinet according to an agreed-upon plan or configuration and deliver it within 30 days. B will pay A an agreed-upon price for the work and will pay 50% of the price up front (to cover materials etc.) and the remainder upon delivery. The contract is "balanced", it does not favor one party over the other; it simply states the obligations of each party.
(2) As long as both parties deliver on their promises, the world moves along as it should. Problems arise when one party or the other defaults - fails to perform his part of the agreement - either A doesn't deliver of B doesn't pay or the cabinet doesn't meet B's understanding of "commonly accepted standards of quality and appearance". The contracting parties can deal with these issues in the contract by agreeing upon defaiult contingencies - what happens when one or the other doesn't meet his obligations - and including them in the written contract. But this gets complicated and may require the assistance of a lawyer. If default contingencies are not written into the contract and a dispute arises, lawyers, mediators and courts get involved to settle the dispute. Their purpose is to try to determine what the parties intended in the contract and to settle the dispute by giving both sides the benefit of their agreement as best they can. A simple, straight forward contract, stated in plane language makes this task much simpler.

Disclaimer: These comments are drawn from my observations over many years of practicing law. Do not consider them to be "legal advice". They are worth what you paid for them. If you have concerns about your legal rights, obligations and vulnerabilities in this area, consult an attorney.
Thank you for the information

Jim
Jim
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#16
I've never used a lawyer.  I email prospective customers a quote with an attached drawing of the project, and detail what materials, hardware, and finishes will be used.  I layout the payment terms and estimated delivery after receipt of down payment.  The client's affirmative response serves as the contract.  I've never had a problem.  Then again, I screen prospective clients as much as some of them likely screen me.  Most of the time you can figure out pretty quickly who you might have problems with.  I've had a couple of people I thought fit into that category, so I declined to quote.  The bulk of the people I've worked for were overjoyed just to find someone willing and capable of doing what they wanted at a reasonable price, and they have treated me very well.   Several have become pretty good friends.  

One thing that has saved a lot of grief - I always submit a finished sample for approval and I leave it with the customer.  On delivery day there are no surprises.  

John
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#17
I use something very similar to this, modified to fit the situation; I actually sent this one out today.  Simple, yet detailed.  It explains what I will do and what the customer (in this case, a friend of mine) will do. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UkH3...p=drivesdk
Semper fi,
Brad

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#18
I have a great contract, though most "customers" complain a bit when they read it.  It starts with the my company motto,  "The Customer is Always Wrong "  then says All Work is Guaranteed -  though it says the guarantee ends when the item leaves my shop.  Since I only do work for friends, and usually charge just for the cost of the wood, not glue, finishing , or labor, they really don't have much room to complain.

I have not written a contract for a furniture maker yet, though agree on most of what Hank says.   The primary thing is to get a clear idea of what each side expects from the other, and put that down in plain language.  Whether or not you use a lawyer, a large part of the process is making sure each side understands the same thing.  It sounds simple, but there are many times when something is said casually or briefly, and the sides understand it differently  ( this is a fairly common plot line in many TV sitcoms ) .  If you do a good job in writing the contract, they customer may say - oh, I didn't understand that,  I don't want to buy from you -  but that is far better than starting the project and realizing there is a difference of opinion. 


I would make sure it is clear in the contract exactly what work is included, and just importantly, what is not included.  If you hire someone to replace your windows, will they take away the old window, will they take down and reinstall shades and curtains,  will they clean up any debris outside, will they patch and repaint any trim on the interior?  A good contract will spell out exactly what they will do and what they won't do. You do want to get to that level of detail on what is included and what is an extra. Once you get a good feel on exclusions, you can use them on each contract. 

 I would definitely put in a sentence that says that the finish, grain, and color may not look exactly like the sample ( wood is a natural product ) and that the appearance may change over time after delivery.  

I would also make clear that the timeline is a projection, and that forces beyond your control can lead to reasonable delays.  If you don't get it done by a certain time, does the buyer have the right to cancel - if so , you should spell that out.

There are rare times when you will end up with a wholly unreasonable customer  -  many of my clients run into that from time to time, and there is not much you can do to prevent that , other than screening, and some luck, but if you work with enough people,  eventually your luck will run out.   

Sometimes a customer may ask you to do something that you think is a stretch -  a common one that comes up on the proffessional finishing forum is a request for a wooden kitchen countertop .  The regular advice is to just say no - since wood, water, and knives don't get along that well - if you instead accept the job,  I would put in bold face type that you do not recommend wood for that job and that there is no warranty on the work - though you may still get slammed later in social media. 

As Hank says,  don't consider this legal advice. And remember my company motto - "the Customer is always wrong".  Actually,  I have 2 company mottos -  I call my company Pinocchio Woodworking, and the second motto is  "While to you it may seem like everything costs an arm and a leg, to us, it was an arm or a leg."
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#19
(03-04-2022, 01:52 PM)jteneyck Wrote: I've never used a lawyer.  I email prospective customers a quote with an attached drawing of the project, and detail what materials, hardware, and finishes will be used.  I layout the payment terms and estimated delivery after receipt of down payment.  The client's affirmative response serves as the contract.  I've never had a problem.  Then again, I screen prospective clients as much as some of them likely screen me.  Most of the time you can figure out pretty quickly who you might have problems with.  I've had a couple of people I thought fit into that category, so I declined to quote.  The bulk of the people I've worked for were overjoyed just to find someone willing and capable of doing what they wanted at a reasonable price, and they have treated me very well.   Several have become pretty good friends.  

One thing that has saved a lot of grief - I always submit a finished sample for approval and I leave it with the customer.  On delivery day there are no surprises.  

John

John, in legal terms, your quote is an "offer." If the client agrees to your terms, I.E., accepts your offer, a contract is formed, the terms of which are set out in your offer. If the client wants to change the terms - wants to alter the configuration of the piece or change the finish, etc., - that can be easily done by noting the changes on your quote. The changes should be initialed by both you and the client to confirm that you both agree to them. This back and forth over the final details is actually a "negotiation" betweeen you and the client. When the final details are agreed upon by both parties, the revised quote becomes the contract. It's important to note that the parties can change the terms of the contract even after the work has begun by simply noting the change on the contract and initialing it to confirm that both parties agree to it. Dating the change beside the initials is a good idea. If the change affects the price, be sure to note that as a change also.
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#20
(03-05-2022, 10:02 AM)Hank Knight Wrote: John, in legal terms, your quote is an "offer." If the client agrees to your terms, I.E., accepts your offer, a contract is formed, the terms of which are set out in your offer. If the client wants to change the terms - wants to alter the configuration of the piece or change the finish, etc., - that can be easily done by noting the changes on your quote. The changes should be initialed by both you and the client to confirm that you both agree to them. This back and forth over the final details is actually a "negotiation" betweeen you and the client. When the final details are agreed upon by both parties, the revised quote becomes the contract. It's important to note that the parties can change the terms of the contract even after the work has begun by simply noting the change on the contract and initialing it to confirm that both parties agree to it. Dating the change beside the initials is a good idea. If the change affects the price, be sure to note that as a change also.

Thanks Hank.  All good points.  

John
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