saw making
(04-23-2022, 02:56 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: It's tough to remain civil on these types of things that are so emotional to each one of us, our tools are an extension of ourselves in regard to the projects they produce. In the past I've made stuff for my wife and commented, "that saw is a pleasure to use!", or "that block plane gives me such a nice finish on these pyramid plugs...", stuff like that...she doesn't even understand what each tool is, as she has different names for them in Japanese...but she nods and smiles for the work. I don't use it as a justification to get more tools, just to share my satisfaction, so there are as many ways to look at a comment like that as there is to use it. In the end we're all different. My wife and me have had misunderstandings more times than I care to admit, some going back years from the early years of our marriage, finally understanding recently. We're from different cultures after all...

Some makers are open with their techniques of tool making, and some are not. A perfect example of this thread for me would be Ron Bontz. Not to put Ron in the spotlight, but I accidentally ran across the etching process in speaking with the vendor Ron worked with, and they mentioned Ron had done the exact some thing with handsaws as I wanted to do. There was some question if Bronze would etch like the Brass did that Ron used (at least for me). I contacted Ron here on Woodnet and he was very open about what he was using and how he used it. I still haven't perfected it but do have a template and the solutions I need for my etching unit. This is very old school compared some modern processes, but much less expensive and is better for small makers like me. I just want my stuff to look professional. I do ponder making saws when I get into retirement.

Same thing with how Ron did his inlays in the heads of the split-nut bolts, I had tried and they didn't come out nice enough, but I have come a long way with metalworking since attempting that in split-nuts. I also like Ron's plate designs, just enough but not too much bling.

That said, I don't want to make any saws to sell, and Ron and Pedder seem limited on what they would do, and I do love the work Skelton does, but would want to make my own in my style for the cost of quality work. He seems very backlogged due to time for the quality he sells...and that I completely understand. Time is money at the end of the day. But if anyone who doesn't make their own saws and doesn't have a favorite/custom saw, I recommend asking one of these guys if you could get on their list to get something custom made for you. Just skip a few Happy Meals...that food isn't good for you anyway...and these boutique makers will never be able to meet large production, IMO, or they would be competing with LN and LV.

Also, I see the saw market as getting the most sales in the $150-$250 range, and I think it would be hard to match LN quality without being able to machine them as TLN has done. CNC is the only way to be able to compete, and that would be a tough area to compete with them, IMO, not to mention the cost of being able to CNC it in the first place.

Florip saws are pushing $200, and guaranteed he puts more time into making his saws than LN does, but LN has a reputation and the quality is good.

I think Skelton has proven that people will spend more $$$s for a tool with higher quality materials with more detail. Not like any of these saws are out of reach for most any of us, just hold back on a few Happy Meals...But the Skelton being the most pricey.

Gas is $6/gallon...think about it...
Rolleyes
..........................
Here's an idea how you can good results inlaying the heads of saw bolts or whatever using abalone, mother of pearl, ivory, exotic woods etc..Decide what diameter dot you want to inlay and buy them from a luthier supplier, then using a bottom cutting end mill chucked in the tailstock, bore the flat brass head to the depth equalling the thickness of the dot or slightly less thick. If the dot "stands proud" it is easy to sand it to be flush to the brass then polish on your buffing wheel  or while it is chucked in your lathe......Instead of a machinist's endmill, you can do the milling on the saw bolt head with an ordinary HSS router bit of the correct diameter.....With a jeweller's saw you can cut the inlay material to whatever shape you want and inlay it..Just set the inlay with black dyed JB Weld, or whatever color you choose....Brass is easy to work with ordinary HSS woodworking tools. but you will need to know how to sharpen them for the task at hand.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mother+o...nt=gws-wiz
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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Alan and anyone else: if you want some powdered metal to mix into epoxy to inlay, send me a private message.

T
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
www.metaltech-pm.com
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(04-23-2022, 03:37 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: Here's an idea how you can good results inlaying the heads of saw bolts or whatever using abalone, mother of pearl, ivory, exotic woods etc..Decide what diameter dot you want to inlay and buy them from a luthier supplier, then using a bottom cutting end mill chucked in the tailstock, bore the flat brass head to the depth equalling the thickness of the dot or slightly less thick.
I pretty much tried this identical procedure on my SB 9A, but the tailstock is not 100% aligned, and it was slightly off center, and it bothered me to my naked eye. On my bigger lathe that I have now, I could easily do that, just haven't built any split-nuts. The early ones were only 1/2" heads, and it took me a while to get those clean. Once again it was Mike Wenzloff that tipped me onto the aircraft bits that would give you a precise hole. I was using a drill press and couldn't get them to fit tightly. Same thing with the insets.

Frank Ford who is a local luthier gave me a large bag of material and taught me how to fit it, mostly just super glue is what Frank uses for most inlays into wood. I have a small fret saw I cut the various material, but also bought diamonds, rounds, some slightly different patterns, in mother of perl, abalone and different tones. They're really cheap, most come from India these days and are used for markers on guitar fingerboards and rosettes, headstocks, stuff like that...Stew Mac carries them for certain, although I bought mine at other inlay vendors. All types of shapes and designs to be inlaid in guitars are made...music notes, etc...I have some bass cleff's which require separate dots also, they make 'em various sizes. The Ivory used on guitars was grandfather'd in when the ban on elephant tusks became taboo in so many countries. I use 5-minute epoxy, that's what I have always used on my slotted handsaw backs, and actually started to use it on Mike Wenzloff's recommendation. I switched to Loctite red as I feel it's better, but the 5-minute Epoxy works and also can be removed with heat, like the Loctite. All of these super glue and epoxies clean up with Acetone which is most commonly found in Nail Polish remover. This was also a very helpful tip from Frank.

Frank had never done checkering either, but he was always encouraging to me to try it and gave me some tips when working with non-flat surfaces as the handle sides. This was pretty helpful as I have done some checkering on flat test pieces using 4 different types of woods. He understand what I was trying to do with it, which was to create a contour that was textures so as you used it you would have a firm grip. This is not to say you should squeeze the handle hard, merely the textured surface would assist in preventing it from slipping, in a sweaty palm as an example. But I also think a smooth finish with a hardwood feels good on my hand, so pontificating over these different aspects is one way I waste time!
Razz

Some people are bitter and unwilling to share with people how they do things, or worse try to hide it. Others, like Frank are willing to help people and even guide them if they don't understand something. I would trust Frank with any vintage guitars, no matter how much they were worth. But Frank is in pretty bad shape. One of the best luthiers know, and one of the most humble people on earth. We all have different personalities. I would like to build my own acoustic guitar, if I ever do I would probably play it rather than the one I have now. I'm pretty happy with my current one though, so it's not pressing, just like everything else...I'd like to build my own. I can't even being to explain what Frank Ford has done to help local aspiring home shop machinists, like me. He has some very practical solutions. He is sure a clever guy.
Smile

(04-23-2022, 03:46 PM)Tony Z Wrote: Alan and anyone else:  if you want some powdered metal to mix into epoxy to inlay, send me a private message.
I'm always interested in trying anything. Me and Frank discussed using dies with Epoxy to get different colors. I like to color coordinate my tools also, so if it's dark wood like Ebony, ivory would be my goto inlay material if possible, or as with lighter woods just using sawdust with epoxy works pretty good. If the inlays are not cleanly cut, or not 100% symmetrical it bothers me. One I did in Olive filled in ok, but I can get the shape cut cleaner with chisels.I have pondered using a router plane to clean out inlay insets, but don't have a bit small enough and have just never been inclined to make one. Would be easy enough to grind/quench a custom bit for a router plane.

I'm curious of what types of powdered metal and/or if there are any types of dies to color the epoxy. I have a great story about using LV's powder metal they use for chisels in a metal lathe. One guy over on PM got pretty hostile over a tool blank failure where the edge crumbled. It didn't happen to me, it happened to someone else who has passed since, on a Monarch lathe. I'd be curious if you have anything that could be poured into edge tool shapes, that's an interesting area of tool making that hasn't been explored yet, AFAIK.

Ok, let's all go build something!
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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(04-23-2022, 04:55 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: I pretty much tried this identical procedure on my SB 9A, but the tailstock is not 100% aligned, and it was slightly off center, and it bothered me to my naked eye. On my bigger lathe that I have now, I could easily do that, just haven't built any split-nuts. The early ones were only 1/2" heads, and it took me a while to get those clean. Once again it was Mike Wenzloff that tipped me onto the aircraft bits that would give you a precise hole. I was using a drill press and couldn't get them to fit tightly. Same thing with the insets.

Frank Ford who is a local luthier gave me a large bag of material and taught me how to fit it, mostly just super glue is what Frank uses for most inlays into wood. I have a small fret saw I cut the various material, but also bought diamonds, rounds, some slightly different patterns, in mother of perl, abalone and different tones. They're really cheap, most come from India these days and are used for markers on guitar fingerboards and rosettes, headstocks, stuff like that...Stew Mac carries them for certain, although I bought mine at other inlay vendors. All types of shapes and designs to be inlaid in guitars are made...music notes, etc...I have some bass cleff's which require separate dots also, they make 'em various sizes. The Ivory used on guitars was grandfather'd in when the ban on elephant tusks became taboo in so many countries. I use 5-minute epoxy, that's what I have always used on my slotted handsaw backs, and actually started to use it on Mike Wenzloff's recommendation. I switched to Loctite red as I feel it's better, but the 5-minute Epoxy works and also can be removed with heat, like the Loctite. All of these super glue and epoxies clean up with Acetone which is most commonly found in Nail Polish remover. This was also a very helpful tip from Frank.

Frank had never done checkering either, but he was always encouraging to me to try it and gave me some tips when working with non-flat surfaces as the handle sides. This was pretty helpful as I have done some checkering on flat test pieces using 4 different types of woods. He understand what I was trying to do with it, which was to create a contour that was textures so as you used it you would have a firm grip. This is not to say you should squeeze the handle hard, merely the textured surface would assist in preventing it from slipping, in a sweaty palm as an example. But I also think a smooth finish with a hardwood feels good on my hand, so pontificating over these different aspects is one way I waste time!
Razz

Some people are bitter and unwilling to share with people how they do things, or worse try to hide it. Others, like Frank are willing to help people and even guide them if they don't understand something. I would trust Frank with any vintage guitars, no matter how much they were worth. But Frank is in pretty bad shape. One of the best luthiers know, and one of the most humble people on earth. We all have different personalities. I would like to build my own acoustic guitar, if I ever do I would probably play it rather than the one I have now. I'm pretty happy with my current one though, so it's not pressing, just like everything else...I'd like to build my own. I can't even being to explain what Frank Ford has done to help local aspiring home shop machinists, like me. He has some very practical solutions. He is sure a clever guy.
Smile

I'm always interested in trying anything. Me and Frank discussed using dies with Epoxy to get different colors. I like to color coordinate my tools also, so if it's dark wood like Ebony, ivory would be my goto inlay material if possible, or as with lighter woods just using sawdust with epoxy works pretty good. If the inlays are not cleanly cut, or not 100% symmetrical it bothers me. One I did in Olive filled in ok, but I can get the shape cut cleaner with chisels.I have pondered using a router plane to clean out inlay insets, but don't have a bit small enough and have just never been inclined to make one. Would be easy enough to grind/quench a custom bit for a router plane.

I'm curious of what types of powdered metal and/or if there are any types of dies to color the epoxy. I have a great story about using LV's powder metal they use for chisels in a metal lathe. One guy over on PM got pretty hostile over a tool blank failure where the edge crumbled. It didn't happen to me, it happened to someone else who has passed since, on a Monarch lathe. I'd be curious if you have anything that could be poured into edge tool shapes, that's an interesting area of tool making that hasn't been explored yet, AFAIK.

Ok, let's all go build something!
..........................
Once again it was Mike Wenzloff that tipped me onto the aircraft bits that would give you a precise hole. I was using a drill press and couldn't get them to fit tightly. Same thing with the insets.

I'm not sure why you couldn't get the drills to fit tightly??????? Or why would a long drill give you a "more precise" hole?
What am I missing here?
Confused
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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(04-23-2022, 07:24 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: I'm not sure why you couldn't get the drills to fit tightly??????? Or why  would a long drill give you a "more precise" hole?
What am I missing here?
Confused
I know, I thought so also...but there was also just a very slight gap along one side where it wasn't entirely concentric. Mike ran into the same problem. I don't like to see any gap whatsoever, I want the head to fit perfectly with wood enclosing it around the entire circumference. Same as all the saws that do not even flush the split-nuts. That bothers me also, I was so happy to figure out how to finally get mine looking professional like Mike's saws did. Also, a drill press is not like a mill with an endmill, it's just not a precise tool for drilling, but it's the convenience of being able to drill holes that such precision is not needed. But try using a Forstner and you will quickly see what I'm talking about. The aircraft bits are like precision Forstner bits that also use a pilot, you can buy different size pilots for them. I bought mine from Enco when they were in biz. Would probably look at Ebay, Travers Tool or Amazon these days. MSC wouldn't be cheap, and neither would Grainger.

And as much as I don't care for folded backs, my Wenzloff saws have folded back and were some of his very first saws. I could never sell them as Mike made them for me, same with my Knight planes, Blue Spruce dovetail chisels, or custom scribes, stuff like that, or even a Brent Bailey hammer to forge with...having tools custom made for me is second only to making them myself. Call me old fashioned.
Smile

With the aircraft bits they have a pilot, so you first drill the pilot and then just cut the depth, but the pilot keeps them going in straight.I usually just eyeball it and leave it slightly proud so I can sand them down flush so don't set the depth, but I use the aircraft bits on the drill press.

On the lathe I was going to mention that in cases where you want to drill precision from the tailstock, say with a reamer as an example, you would use a floating holder and guide it in with your tailstock hand to allow it to go in on center. Not as hard as it sounds as the lathe is spinning very fast so with the floating holder it will pretty much be centered. But they need play to be able to do that, you can't have a fixed bit in the tail stock. I have a MT3 floating holder for a 7/16" which is the size of reamers I use mostly. That will get a precise hole. So many factors, you'll just have to do some research on your own, some of it I'm sure you must be aware of as you have a metalworking lathe.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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Alan,

I process primarily conventional PM. Rob Lee’s tools use different processing methods to achieve their accelerated properties. Through the years we have spoken about powdered metal and though he wouldn’t tell me the name of the company process his tools, he did say it was not far from my plant.

About 75% of my output goes into new vehicles. Most materials are low to high carbon steels, some stainless, some bronze, some brass and copper infiltrated steel (I’ll let you Google that!). Virtually every new car has parts in their shocks we make and most domestic pick-ups have between 6 and 18 parts in their tailgates we make. Our website tells a small portion of our story, and in dire need of updating.

As I said, if anyone wants some material to play with let me know.

T.
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
www.metaltech-pm.com
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(04-24-2022, 05:18 AM)Tony Z Wrote: I process primarily conventional PM.  Rob Lee’s tools use different processing methods to achieve their accelerated properties.  Through the years we have spoken about powdered metal and though he wouldn’t tell me the name of the company process his tools, he did say it was not far from my plant.
He's a very nice guy, and I do admire him, not just because his father was smart enough to create the business, but because Rob was smart enough to figure out how to take them into the future with manufacturing their own tools with CNC. He Father probably created tools manually, so it was a natural evolution to start machining them with CNC. It was Rob that was able to accomplish that. Same goes for TLN, BTW, that is pretty much what TLN does and he could have predated LV in regard to automating quality tools with any form of NC.

This was also evolving with Adria, although Eddie wasn't doing what TLN was up to, he was one of the first to have someone waterjet the teeth on the Adria handsaws, at least I remember talking about this with Mike Wenzloff. Keep in mind, Mike had already been trying to dissect handsaw history for a long time before he even started to make saws. Mike was just a natural toolmaker who was always thinking of ways to create new solutions, do things better, and build the best tools you can with the tools you have. Cause it takes tools to make tools.

(04-24-2022, 05:18 AM)Tony Z Wrote: About 75% of my output goes into new vehicles.
I wouldn't say 75%, but much of my time has been going into antique vehicles.
Big Grin

I have a '46 Chevy 3100 1/2 ton pickup I'm working on. I have a Tremec T5 spread out on the office floor, I'm rebuilding it on my "greasy" bench on the other side of the office, where I'm typing right now. I'm replacing the axle, drive shaft, transmission, etc...so that I can drive it on modern highways. Slight upgrade to the brakes, but staying with vintage drums on both front and back, just going to newer Bendix style as they adapt easily to my year truck. It was my favorite era of all, the Art Deco era...vehicles were so cool...interesting that the Art Deco era didn't really have too much of an impact on woodworking tools, although it is when the Delta home shop equipment came about, it seems if anything it brought tailed apprentices to the masses, where prior to that people were literally still building homes with a hammer and handsaw. It was the early '40s when Delta came out with the Uni-Saw and the belt/disc sanders, scroll saw, band saws, et al...construction would never be the same after that point.This is pretty much what separates this hand tool forum, heh?

(04-24-2022, 05:18 AM)Tony Z Wrote: Most materials are low to high carbon steels, some stainless, some bronze, some brass and copper infiltrated steel (I’ll let you Google that!).
I work most of these. Some blades and other edge tools I've made out of O1, mostly because I can temper in my shop with oil. Frank Ford was very helpful tome for that type of stuff, and a blacksmith I know helped me with oxy-acetylene enough to use for heating as well. I have hardened/tempered at home using an old Champion rivet forge, with pine charcoal. I made it in a metal trash can I modified. So it is possible without gas, just that it's way easier and cleaner. I try not to use coal at home, or at all...so I opt for oxy-acytelene.

What I was wondering is if the powdered metal could be poured or formed as well as cured to make edge tools. I have no idea how LV does it, I do have a toobit blank, no worries. Too much to figure out, I don't have any equipment to use it and it's all pricey as you know. I'm better off in the rivet forge at that point as I can do it at home and feel safe. Acetylene is pretty dangerous, although we don't hear of too many accidents, there are some and it can do some real damage. I just keep a small propane/mapp can on hand at home, rather than using my oxy-acytelene at the yard I use. Seems safer for my family. Since the home/shop project will have a detached shop, I'll be moving them there and that won't bother me as much, even if my family is in the home. This can be an issue as most home shops are in attached garages, as my current.

(04-24-2022, 05:18 AM)Tony Z Wrote: Virtually every new car has parts in their shocks we make and most domestic pick-ups have between 6 and 18 parts in their tailgates we make.  Our website tells a small portion of our story, and in dire need of updating.
That's interesting in itself to me...my wife was the office assistant to the President of Aishin-Seiki, possibly the largest auto parts manufacturer in Japan, she left the company 35 years ago when she married me and I brought here to America. They make most all of the Toyota parts as well as a good amount of Honda parts, AFAIK.

Here's one thing that scares me...Jay Leno had a show where a company could produce auto parts for him using a 3D printer which was able to print a metal crescent wrench on the show with the moving thumb screw portion in place, and the sliding jaw as well, 3 different parts that were printed in assembled format, working, in metal. And that was like 2 or 3 years ago...You must know about this...but I wonder how long before we get to a point we could print out an entire hand plane, say an infill, which could route a handle out of wood and print the base in metal...Elon Musk is warning us about what we're capable of, that is if we don't blow up the world...we're capable of that also...

I like to say, I just want to go back to a simpler time, a quiet shop with some hand tools overlooking the lake. I want all the noisy stuff out in the machine shop and I want to get all the work done I am not too crazy about, like dimensioning my pieces so I can fit and assemble them, the later is the fun part for me....
Winkgrin

I sent you a PM on the PM...LOL
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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