saw making
#41
Sorry, don't come by here too often, and have been busy with a new job, but remembered this thread.

(03-21-2022, 04:20 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: As far as I am aware, Pete is making a new range of saws. They have a similar look to the IT range he began with (I have one - very special saw): "Ne Plus Ultra" ...
I follow Pete on IG  and I've discussed a great deal about metals and handsaws, he said he had some new alloys he was working with, cause I pointed out bronze.

His saws are really the same saw he was selling as the Independence, one of which I know you own. In my line of work I look at it as being the same technology.

(03-21-2022, 04:20 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Anyway, I am just a plonker when it comes to making saws.
That's a big fat lie, you've made probably close to a dozen saws including non-backsaws. I hope someone is going to inherit your shop, like your kids. Your saws look great, even though  you always use that Ozzie wood...j/k LOL No sympathy for a plonker on my end...
Winkgrin
Winkgrin
Winkgrin

I would just sand the cheeks, you should try it on one, it would only take you 15 minutes.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#42
(03-22-2022, 01:38 PM)Pedder Wrote: But Shane Skelton is the best western maker, hands down. And I'm happy that he and his familiy can live from saw making. I couldn't.
Couldn't agree more. I also hope the demand continues for him, there are more people that will spend more money on tools with more detail, there are a lot of aspects such as graving, checkering, inlays that can be done more, you have done some yourself.

I have other plans, speaking of which I got a call from the county today that my shop plans were approved...I may make some saws after I get the shop setup, but I have plenty of woodworking to do, and have so many handsaws...I probably only need a few files...LOL
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#43
(03-23-2022, 02:36 PM)Pedder Wrote: My grain direction in green, the one of Pete in blue.
Petes fibres don't run through the transistion.  That could break  (not sure if that isn't a overrated fear).
I think this is very subjective, and I can see how that perspective could be taken. In the case where your force is the push of the saw, this works fine.

I like to just point out that most saw handles that break, do so because they were dropped. It's impossible to know how that saw may fall in the future, which part of the handle may hit something on the way down and spin the saw end over end having it hit on the bottom or top...and it's not just saws, I have other tools that broke. Starrett test indicators, chisels that were chipped on the edge...stuff like that...

I made a saw  for a friend. It wasn't the first, but was one that had bronze parts. And it was after I learned how to clean up the cheeks. He thought the saw was so nice he was afraid to keep it in his toolbox where he previous kept a similar style crosscut saw to cut the carcass on cabinets when he does the final installation. I told him I wanted to make a case for it, but hadn't done so, but I told him it's a tool and I wanted him to use it, so he put in his toolbox and has been using it  like it was meant to be used. He a very talented woodworker.

Anyway, looking at a handle and how the grain runs really needs to take into account for a great many ways a saw may fall, and I think Pete's saws look very nice, just that it's like 25 year old technology that is very similar in construction to his Independence design that LN purchased. Slotted back is brilliant, IMO, 100% of the credit goes to Pete. Without a doubt the most influential saw maker of our time, of ANY of them.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#44
(03-21-2022, 02:38 PM)Pedder Wrote: Just to understand: Are you talking about that part in the circle?

[Image: AVvXsEhZzjgk3uz0YJsXnURGe_YmFR5O-9ItESJH...=w640-h498]

Cheers
Pedder

Hi Pedder

What Alan says about maximising strength in this area may be correct. Nevertheless, the way you have treated this aspect of the transition makes you, in my book, the Maloof of sawyers. It is very Maloof-like …. soft flowing curves. This particular curve is just so clever. It transforms a potentially busy area, which lots of projections, into a simple, understated piece of art. My compliments.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#45
(03-24-2022, 03:41 AM)kTraditionalToolworks Wrote: ….100% of the credit goes to Pete. Without a doubt the most influential saw maker of our time, of ANY of them.

Absolutely agree! 

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#46
(03-24-2022, 08:35 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Absolutely agree! 

Regards from Perth

Derek
....................
Wayne made some pretty unique saws along with his planes and other tools..I haven't seen him posting here in years tho.

https://galootopia.com/old_tools/saws/
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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#47
(03-24-2022, 08:28 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Nevertheless, the way you have treated this aspect of the transition makes you, in my book, the Maloof of sawyers. It is very Maloof-like …. soft flowing curves. This particular curve is just so clever. It transforms a potentially busy area, which lots of projections, into a simple, understated piece of art. My compliments.

Derek, thank you but I have tol forward this complioments to Klaus.
Most if not all of our changes of the cassic designs are his ideas.
It is the curve wich is such a simple idea and happened as an accident.
it is the letting the spine in flush to the cheeks and certainly the oval spine.
And it is his overall attention to the small curves. I litterally follow ihis instructions close and
that is the only way for me to get good results.

Are we influenced? You bet on that. Mike Wenzloff.
Leif Norse Woodsmith Pete Taran, certainly. And Joel from Gramercy tools,
who created a very special light weight and slim saw wich impressed Klaus a lot.

And caused a lot of e-mails and telefon calls between Klaus and me. Ferrai vs. Range Rover

I made my design, wich you know, but it never took of like Klaus designs. wich is fine to me.

Cheers Pedder
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#48
So I had a few spare moments this afternoon and I decided to add some empirical data to the conversation. I measured the handle thickness at the neck of the handle: the area in question that would appear to be the weak spot if the handle were to break. Two dimensions are provided: front to back (what we would normally refer to as handle thickness) and top to bottom at the narrowest point of the neck. Thickness is fairly close for all four saws, with the Pedder and Klaus saw winning by .003". It gets more interesting when the other dimension of the neck is measured: the Wenzloff is the fattest, coming in at .690", with the Pedder and Klaus being the thinnest, coming in at .543". However, this does not tell the whole story. The contour of the handle at this point of the neck: specifically the inner part of the neck toward your hand when gripping the saw varies significantly. The Wenzloff, Skelton, and Ne Plus Ultra (Pete Taran) are contoured and come to a point at the counterpoint of the handle, with the Skelton having the most dramatic contour. The outlier: the Pedder and Klaus: it has almost no inner contour. If one were to slice a cross-section of the handle at this point, I suspect (have not done the integration) that the saw with the greatest neck cross-sectional area is the Pedder and Klaus. Conclusions: I suspect that there is effectively no difference in handle strength of these 4 saws due solely to handle geometry. As an aside, when I go to pick up a DT saw, the Pedder and Klaus is the one I am most likely to pick up.



   
   
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#49
(03-24-2022, 08:35 AM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Absolutely agree! 

Regards from Perth

Derek

(03-24-2022, 09:46 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: ....................
Wayne made some pretty unique saws along with his planes and other tools..I haven't seen him posting here in years tho.

https://galootopia.com/old_tools/saws/

Wayne’s web site hasn’t been up for quite some time.  He wasn’t at this years MWTCA IN MN, either, and he’s usually there.
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#50
Tha grain really appears to be parallel to the spine, not on an angle at all which is pretty much worst case.  Keep in mind, its not just there in the neck that its a problem. Trace the grain into the upper horn. If you look at Pedder's saw, you will see tip of the horn is all long grain.  Since the lower horn is pretty parallel, that's the same. Long grain=strong. The other saw's upper horn is all short grain, waiting to break at the first knock.

Contrary to what Pedder wrote, the saw handle is not at all similar to a hammer handle. These things are pretty delicate, carefully shaped to fit our hands. The shape has been developed over centuries. 

Notice the length of Pedder's lower horn.  You hold this tool like a pistol, with the toe pointing up.  The weight of the saw forces your wrist down.That lower horn comes and hits the bottom of your hand/wrist, supporting the position of the saw, allowing you to grip the saw that much lighter, which is good.

This was an early (2003) prototype.  The horns got longer as I went. Couple things for expert eyes: Not enough clearance under the lower horn.  I fixed that later. Saw plate taper helped and really doesn't effect depth of cut at all. Also moves the cg of the saw closer to the handle which is good and bad. Note the pretty inconsistent tooth sizes. Nice indicator of hand work, but unacceptable.  I think in my prime I was able to cut 20tpi pretty consistently using a needle file.  Not sure I loved those saws, however. This one may have been 15-16tpi ISH. All my saws were built for speed, and pro-use. Making case furniture, I could be holding one of these saws 4-6 hours at a time, which is kind of a lot of sawing. When I fixed the space under the horn, I also fixed the heel teeth and found I could use this area of the saw more effectively for longer cuts like the sliding DTs in a drawer divider (cuts into the carcass) and for dadoes too small for any kind of plane (secretary guts etc).

Kinda funny that having made a couple hundred saws, the saws I use today were the first saws I made in 1999 or so.  This was before just about anyone was talking about saws.  I think Pete was making saws back then tho.  Only other option were crown gent's saws and Japanese saws.  So happy that in 20 short years we can now talk about the many saw makers and compare their wares intelligently.


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