saw making
Williamsburg has tons of antique tools. Lots of stuff got donated to them. They have English contacts and plenty of access to old British everything. As a museum, they made the choice to store away or display old antique tools, even those presently plentiful, and instead made reproductions which are essentially consumables.

George’s tool making was never intended to be a period accurate approach. He mass produced tools as practicable as possible that were close enough facsimiles.

The craftsman who work in the historic area generally have antique tools in and among their tool kits. These are their personal tools that they’ll take with them when they go. So if you see antiques tools while visiting, don’t make a fuss about it.
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Ok, Adam answered before I did, with a better answer.

Sounds like an interpersonal issue. I don’t have a dog in the hunt so I’ll leave you two fellows alone.
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(04-21-2022, 06:57 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Williamsburg has tons of antique tools. Lots of stuff got donated to them. They have English contacts and plenty of access to old British everything.
It's an interesting type of reenactment since America couldn't run from the Brits fast enough, many of the amendments in the Constitution were amended to protect us against the Brits! We had a lot of handsaws in America that could have been used to produce great furniture, Disston saws were high quality for the cost...but Williamsburg doesn't strike me as a value type of proposition, I must fail to see that side of it. It will cost more and take longer using methods from the years England had been producing saws prior to Disston, which I seem to recall came from England to begin with. Nothing new with his saws, but they were good quality saws and allows people to build homes. I do like the old timberframe homes from England, that is one of my faves, and Morris, I love his stuff as well. But I don't even want to follow any one style, I want to create my own and still not sure how that will evolve. I don't live in a reenactment and I'm not really trying to use the tools I do because someone says I should.

During the early to late 2000s there was a fascination with the Seaton chest. It seems to have been created by craftsmen digging back into historical books to take themselves "Back to the Future" for lack of a better analogy. Underhill, Schwarz, Moskowitz, et al, did an amazing job at fueling this fire, nobody more than Schwarz. Just the nicest of gents that is deserving of high praise from any galoot. All of this history is more focused on a period of "Going to America". How could Benjamin Seaton take a chest of tools, most of which people can't afford to buy. The way I understand it is he came from a rich family and liked doing woodworking so they bought him a giant chest of the best tools in the day so he could chase that dream in America?

(04-21-2022, 06:57 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: As a museum, they made the choice to store away or display old antique tools, even those presently plentiful, and instead made reproductions which are essentially consumables.
Strange logic here Adam, not sure I'm following you. I hate to use you as a point, but you have always done more period correct work in how you perform it, even the clothes you have worn, but the style, the tools, the way...it's more period correct for England. Also not trying to label what you do, I don't really know and having followed you in years.

To me it doesn't matter, sometimes I go into the shop in Birkenstocks without socks, and try to protect my feet from falling chisels, and I often craft handles sitting on a stool in from of my pattern maker's vise with a rasp and spokeshaves not wearing any shoes at all. We don't wear shoes in our house. This is not to cast a shadow on anything you do, just to show that I grew up as a surfer kit during the 60s and 70s, hippies throwing beach parties in hot rods. This is also understandable how someone from Williamsburg, or even you, might find me offensive. That has nothing to do with holding a rational discussion. This problem is not going away the more that the Internet matures, for better or worse. You will never be able to prevent people for having these conversation, whether they are censored or not. I've said before, Woodnet could ban me and I would just go on as I have always gone on...I take everything at face value, and for me George was always wearing at least 2 of them.

(04-21-2022, 06:57 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: George’s tool making was never intended to be a period accurate approach. He mass produced tools as practicable as possible that were close enough facsimiles.
Another different in view if I had been in charge. I'm not saying I could have done it better or worse, just that I would have never created/supported Williamsburg unless I intended to craft and display everything as it was done.

(04-21-2022, 06:57 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: The craftsman who work in the historic area generally have antique tools in and among their tool kits. These are their personal tools that they’ll take with them when they go. So if you see antiques tools while visiting, don’t make a fuss about it.
This is kind of an odd comment also, I don't know why you wouldn't want to display period correct tools even if the craftsmen leave and take their own tools. Are you saying that the craftsmen have more pride than Williamsburg themselves? It kinda sounds like they do have period correct tools I was would expect myself to use in that situation, but somehow Williamsburg didn't think that was important? I must be misunderstanding you.

Lastly I will say, when I read @CStan posts I know I'm not the only one that questions some of these peculiar views and positions that Williamsburg took, but I hope the people currently in charge will steer Williamsburg in the right direction so when they tell people it's period correct, or give the impression to people that it is and it's really not, I feel it's a disservice to their followers all because someone felt it was too costly to follow their agenda. BUT, I didn't respond like CStan did or even to his post, although it makes perfect sense to me. It was that type of post that got me banned from here years ago...
Winkgrin Especially these days when something goes viral overnight with this odd cancel culture, it's the very reason people want to do things the way it was done 150 years ago...even rub lamb tallow under their arms....but we have modern T-9 to use instead of tallow...my opinion.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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(04-21-2022, 06:47 PM)CStan Wrote: Apparently struggling to reproduce tools that had been mass produced for at least 150 years, and were sold on a routine basis on weekends at car boot sales for next to nothing.

That's my point.

Somebody needed a friend in England.

Granted, you had to do something to earn the check that was issued religiously on the 1st and 15th.

As others have said, George is a prick.  A full-on jerk.  He never had anything nice to say about any of his fellow craftsman at CW, at least based on his forum postings. 

There are better toolmakers, there are better guitar makers, and there are better harpsichord makers.  He's a legend in his own mind.
CStan,

I don't think I know you, or have seen you around any forums I've hung out at, and I don't want to agree or disagree with it, so will just quote it. George is going through his own issues with health, his medications were really having a huge effect on him with his responses, 2 even 3, years ago...not just to me, but a number of others. I think we should give him some slack. He has no influence on Williamsburg and maybe there's people in charge there now that have a vision that matches what people like me had thought it was. And it really doesn't matter.

It is a shame that so much dishonest views are stored in the Internet archive.org database. I'm sure it's disgusting to read his comments and most likely my responses to him.

There are so many great sawmakers we can praise and even have a great saw crafted for ourselves. Despite people saying they have seen these "consumables" Williamsburg crafted, I will probably never go to Williamsburg or see them, so it's moot. Same with George, I'm not having any conversations with him now or ever, period, cause I don't believe George will ever make another saw, nor would he hold a rational dialog. I could care less what people think about me, or think how much of an @$$#O!E they think I am or have been...to put in in my kinda words, "You gotta eat a lot of $#!T before you get to the @$$#O!E". You can quote me on that, I know of nobody else who has ever used it..
Winkgrin

Me thinks the majority of the world don't like honesty.

Thanks for even chiming in, took some guts for that! ROTFLMAO

Now let's both go build something!
Smile
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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Can’t respond to everything above. I’ll just say:
1) 18th c saws don’t look like 19th c saws. I think the burg was looking for the most visual accuracy they could get, and frankly, they found a way to do better than just having the guys use old Disston saws and Stanley planes. I know George left bluing on some blades which I personally would not have done, but whatever. They were way ahead of any other historic site I’ve ever seen (and Ive seen quite a few).
2) George and others made a lot of basic tools, but the front of the house trades people made tools too. They set up their own mini economy, consuming each other’s goods, which was neat. I think they had Underhill to thank for this.  They were demonstrating, but doing real work at the same time, which, in my opinion, made their demonstrations higher quality. Come to think of it, the gun shop was maybe first at this, but I’m not 100% sure.
3) At their best, they never were able to make every tool. Some antique tools were and are necessary. I don’t think they ever made center bits for example. Several guys have Addis carving chisels. Old molding planes are floating around in several shops, tho they made or bought hollows and rounds.

I used to dream of a day when I could buy all the 18th c tools required for furniture making brand new. We’ve gotten close but never really there.
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(04-21-2022, 11:16 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Can’t respond to everything above. I’ll just say:
1) 18th c saws don’t look like 19th c saws. I think the burg was looking for the most visual accuracy they could get, and frankly, they found a way to do better than just having the guys use old Disston saws and Stanley planes. I know George left bluing on some blades which I personally would not have done, but whatever. They were way ahead of any other historic site I’ve ever seen (and Ive seen quite a few).
2) George and others made a lot of basic tools, but the front of the house trades people made tools too. They set up their own mini economy, consuming each other’s goods, which was neat. I think they had Underhill to thank for this.  They were demonstrating, but doing real work at the same time, which, in my opinion, made their demonstrations higher quality. Come to think of it, the gun shop was maybe first at this, but I’m not 100% sure.
3) At their best, they never were able to make every tool. Some antique tools were and are necessary. I don’t think they ever made center bits for example. Several guys have Addis carving chisels. Old molding planes are floating around in several shops, tho they made or bought hollows and rounds.

I used to dream of a day when I could buy all the 18th c tools required for furniture making brand new. We’ve gotten close but never really there.

It is hard to believe that people seem to have strong opinions on Williamsburg who have apparently never been there.There are even two people who suggest that the colonial era was just 150 years ago. That was 1872! Saws were quite different then than a century earlier. I can see why George would be put off by experts who did not know very much.

Recreating 18th century saw making would be a daunting task. Saw making then was carried on at a large scale with many specialists. There is a lot we do not know. Making a saw in the 18th century was a lot more complicated than filing a handle; That was the easy part. There is a reason this trade was not carried on in Williamsburg in the 18th century.

I have know people who were collecting saws in the 1970s. 18th century saws are quite rare and quite valuable. The idea that one could assemble a set from Ebay or fleamarkets is laughable.
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Another thing: wmsburg is careful about trying to recreate, not the entirety of historic trades, but only those trades present in wmsburg. No saw or plane makers were present in wmsburg in the 1770s. Having the blacksmiths make chisels was a bit of a stretch, but not out to the realm of possibility. Colonial era Williamsburg craftsmen probably got their tools from England. I think George tried to copy English tools. Come to think of it, I’m not remembering any colonial American saw makers.
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(04-22-2022, 07:09 AM)wmickley Wrote: I can see why George would be put off by experts who did not know very much.
Even worse than that, guys like me don't really care on way or the other. To me it's all about building furniture. The wood has no idea what type of tool I'm using, so I don't really fuss over it and just use the ones I like. A hand is a hand is a hand...and a tool is a tool is a tool.

I have to be honest with you. If there was enough interest at Williamsburg for me, I would have visited there years ago. I have bee the Gamble House 4 times, and drove 8 hours each way to go inside. They don't even allow you to touch anything or take pictures, and why I have been 4 times. The fact I don't see enough interest for me to visit Williamsburg says I have a different view. In those days lamb tallow was used on tools quite commonly. I will never use it for too much as it's organic and organic lubricants grow mold and other organisms and stink over time. If you have ever opened up old machine parts, auto parts, engines, that old organic oils stink...I guess I'm sensitive to that, but synthetics seem to be a better solution, so I use T-9 rather than lamb tallow, as an example and it is not organic. I don't like old stuff just because it's old. I always need to justify for myself. I do like old stuff in general though, any types of antiques, vintage machine, vintage tools, vintage cars...even vintage homes. Vintage doesn't always make sense, so in this regard you have shown me one reason George may have done what he did, at least to make me realize. George was horrible to trying to explain himself, he either makes too many memory mistakes or has a different understanding. I wish him the best, he'll have no impact on the rest of my life.

(04-22-2022, 07:09 AM)wmickley Wrote: Recreating 18th century saw making would be a daunting task.
Indeed, and why I was asking for clarification. I don't have any tools from the 18th century, even the oldest of the 19th century tools I own, including saws are pretty bad quality, it wasn't until about 1830-1850 when the steel was brought up to an acceptable tool for everyday use. Again, IMO.

You and me prove very well that people have different opinions on these topics. 'nuff said.

We should go build something.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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As has been already posted previously, this thread and several others (saws), are some of the most interesting I’ve read during the many years visiting forums. In spite of the varied opinions, posts have remained civil, and informative.

All in all, they remind me of when I was an apprentice (70’s!) and times during breaks and lunches. As Alan just said, we have differing opinions until the foreman says “get to work”.
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
www.metaltech-pm.com
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(04-23-2022, 04:55 AM)Tony Z Wrote: As has been already posted previously, this thread and several others (saws), are some of the most interesting I’ve read during the many years visiting forums.  In spite of the varied opinions, posts have remained civil, and informative.
It's tough to remain civil on these types of things that are so emotional to each one of us, our tools are an extension of ourselves in regard to the projects they produce. In the past I've made stuff for my wife and commented, "that saw is a pleasure to use!", or "that block plane gives me such a nice finish on these pyramid plugs...", stuff like that...she doesn't even understand what each tool is, as she has different names for them in Japanese...but she nods and smiles for the work. I don't use it as a justification to get more tools, just to share my satisfaction, so there are as many ways to look at a comment like that as there is to use it. In the end we're all different. My wife and me have had misunderstandings more times than I care to admit, some going back years from the early years of our marriage, finally understanding recently. We're from different cultures after all...

Some makers are open with their techniques of tool making, and some are not. A perfect example of this thread for me would be Ron Bontz. Not to put Ron in the spotlight, but I accidentally ran across the etching process in speaking with the vendor Ron worked with, and they mentioned Ron had done the exact some thing with handsaws as I wanted to do. There was some question if Bronze would etch like the Brass did that Ron used (at least for me). I contacted Ron here on Woodnet and he was very open about what he was using and how he used it. I still haven't perfected it but do have a template and the solutions I need for my etching unit. This is very old school compared some modern processes, but much less expensive and is better for small makers like me. I just want my stuff to look professional. I do ponder making saws when I get into retirement.

Same thing with how Ron did his inlays in the heads of the split-nut bolts, I had tried and they didn't come out nice enough, but I have come a long way with metalworking since attempting that in split-nuts. I also like Ron's plate designs, just enough but not too much bling.

That said, I don't want to make any saws to sell, and Ron and Pedder seem limited on what they would do, and I do love the work Skelton does, but would want to make my own in my style for the cost of quality work. He seems very backlogged due to time for the quality he sells...and that I completely understand. Time is money at the end of the day. But if anyone who doesn't make their own saws and doesn't have a favorite/custom saw, I recommend asking one of these guys if you could get on their list to get something custom made for you. Just skip a few Happy Meals...that food isn't good for you anyway...and these boutique makers will never be able to meet large production, IMO, or they would be competing with LN and LV.

Also, I see the saw market as getting the most sales in the $150-$250 range, and I think it would be hard to match LN quality without being able to machine them as TLN has done. CNC is the only way to be able to compete, and that would be a tough area to compete with them, IMO, not to mention the cost of being able to CNC it in the first place.

Florip saws are pushing $200, and guaranteed he puts more time into making his saws than LN does, but LN has a reputation and the quality is good.

I think Skelton has proven that people will spend more $$$s for a tool with higher quality materials with more detail. Not like any of these saws are out of reach for most any of us, just hold back on a few Happy Meals...But the Skelton being the most pricey.

Gas is $6/gallon...think about it...
Rolleyes
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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