Going off of Pedders post
#21
(04-13-2022, 12:47 AM)Pedder Wrote: On a saw it is mostly about the sharpening and setting. 

Pedder: I could not agree more. Phil
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#22
Hang Angle????


Are you guys talking about how your hand on the handle in reguard to the wood being cut??

I would assume like turning how a tool angle is not exact you just present the tool at a different angle to get the same cut right?????  Say I sharpen a gouge at 70 degrees but could use it at 55 degrees then I would just angle the tool different to get the desired cutting angle in turning.

Also to me it makes no difference between sitting at a lathe or standing at a lathe it would work but a person is using a saw at a sharper angle as in bending down to saw then just standing and cutting would the cutting angle make a difference????
It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

Hi, I'm Arlin's proud wife! His brain trma & meds-give memory probs and has pain from injuries, but all is well materially & financially.  
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#23
(04-13-2022, 12:47 AM)Pedder Wrote: On a saw it is mostly about the sharpening and setting. Even a 1000 $ saw with bronce spine,
mother of pearl inlay and polished with some hokus pokus oil is worthless if the theeth are dull.

A 5$ Casio watch can show the time more exactly than some 500$ Rolex.

If you saw a lot (like in day in day out) The handle becomes a bigger factor.
Then it should realy fit your hand.
Any sharp edge can lead to problems,
but so can overpolished surfaces.

The hang of the handle needs to fit with the weight of the spine and the rake of the teeth.
There is not one good hang angel.

Same for the wood: the difference between my heavy and my light wood is about 30%.
That is not unimportant and you have to watch how the saw works.

Cheers
Pedder

You can't ask for better truth, IMO, and I believe it all starts with the first comment. Until you learn how to sharpen, you have nothing more to learn. This pretty much goes for all edge tools, no matter what they are, hand plane blades, chisels, draw knives, spoke shaves, slicks, et al, the list is long and treacherous. Pick your poison.
Winkgrin

I would even say that if anyone on Woodnet doesn't have a saw which you're happy with, get on Pedder's list and have him work with you to get what you do seek, IMO, unless you build your own. I would always fall back to the blacksmith mentality, it is the galoot way, you have to build your own tools before you can use them. That is kind of how it worked in the days of lore.

Anyway, there are more than one craftsman that will work with you to get that handle that really fits your hand, and to make it for the way you want it to feel. If that's a boxy Pax type handle, go for it! Don't let anyone tell you what to use because you know best. I could go into Home Depot right now, buy the crappiest saw that has a Stanley or even Disston name, it could be a ChingLingChickenWing and I could still craft beautiful things.

Ron Bontz would also be a great guy to work with, or Bad Axe. To a lesser extent places like Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley, Japanese vendors, et al, It will just not be made for you custom. And I think that's a great thing if you don't make them for yourself. I have a lot of custom tools that were made for me by other craftsmen. Even if you decide to get one of those quality built non-custom saws, you need to start back at the first comment Pedder makes above. And while you sharpen it, use it each time. You will learn and be able to feel when your saw is dull or what it feels like when it's sharp. Eventually you will want to sharpen your saw before you use it as it doesn't take very much time. That's what I do. It takes me a lot longer to cut the joinery than sharpen my saw, even for the smallest projects. As a bonus, once you learn how to sharpen your saw you won't need to joint and reshape the teeth, it's a simple 1-2 minute task for most saws.

The only other advice I can offer people in this thread is that if this process doesn't appeal to you, you might want to consider a different selection of tools to use, because hand saws may not be for you. If you don't use the tool that much it really doesn't matter, it will probably stay sharp for many years. So if you don't build much with your tools you might not need to worry about sharpening them to begin with.

I'm only suggesting everyone learn to sharpen their edge tools if you plan to use them. Some people use table saws for cutting their joinery, some use a band saw, some have jigs that allow them to do these operations, either by hand or power tools...all of them are the right way if they work for you/me/whoever. We have so many options on how to assemble wood. If done right, it is still beautiful and even if one was to use screws to hold it together without any nice joinery, people will most likely not even notice it. If I was better I wouldn't use sawdust and glue as often as I do, or fix something I measure wrong...a dovetail or box joint that wasn't cut 100% kosher. I've covered a couple things up that were never detected, one was in an LV toolmaking contest with an early saw I made with a walnut handle. Sometimes the world is all the better not knowing...
Laugh It still on my bench and it's sharp, it only took me 4 times to get a sharp filing on it...so I have gotten better!
Laugh

For me, one of the joys in my shop is when I have one of my favorite saws sharp and cutting straight, not pulling to either side, and watching it chiseling the wood away as you push/pull in a test piece (i.e., western/eastern?, is England western?
Razz). I like to test before screwin...err, I mean fixing a problem that may exist...
Rolleyes But that just gives me the extra confidence to know I I screw it up, it is not the tool. As craftsmen we should be humble, there are so many right ways to do most all of building with wood.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#24
Hope this helps. When I hold a dt saw, I hold it roughly like a pistol with my wrist pretty straight. Most dt saws will point up maybe 40+ degrees. That’s roughly how I use that saw and how I think they were traditionally used. I start the cut by raising the toe.

Starting a dt with the saw flat on end grain I think is disadvantageous. It’s hard to start any saw on end grain. This necessitates teeth with a lot of rake, which reduces the speed of the cut. Also, very hard to saw straight this way without a lot of muscle memory and skill. The way I do it is easy to learn, easy to correct, and results in good quality, even when tired. Not impossible to start on end grain tho- lots of guys do it and are successful.

So all that influences handle shapes and angles for me. Plate taper effects the weight of the saw and toe weight or cg and that’s a big factor. For me, I don’t need much blade depth for case dovetails.

I’m the one who uses the heel teeth for lots of cuts, but I wouldn’t want another tool for that. I like using the tool in my hand, wouldn’t like to switch. I try to size all dts for a single chisel when I can.

Hey - been using Stanley hard point (impulse hardened) saws. Have a backsaw and a panel saw. They have plastic handles with soft overmolded rubber. Cutting plywood and Boral trim boards. These saws get very good reviews on Amazon and some carpentry forums. Having used saws like we are discussing in this forum, I’d like to add the Stanley saws are absolutely atrocious in comparison. The plates are thick, the teeth are set really wide and just nasty to use. Anyone who doesn’t have a fine, well sharpened handsaw is really missing out.
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#25
(04-13-2022, 05:58 PM)Arlin Eastman Wrote: Hang Angle???? Are you guys talking about how your hand on the handle in reguard to the wood being cut??

Hi Arlin,

before I try to describe hang angle in English, please let me forward you to Isaac from Blackburn tools (who presented his first saw on this forum!) https://www.blackburntools.com/blog/conc...w-handles/


(04-13-2022, 05:58 PM)Arlin Eastman Wrote: I would assume like turning how a tool angle is not exact you just present the tool at a different angle to get the same cut right????? Say I sharpen a gouge at 70 degrees but could use it at 55 degrees then I would just angle the tool different to get the desired cutting angle in turning.

Also to me it makes no difference between sitting at a lathe or standing at a lathe it would work but a person is using a saw at a sharper angle as in bending down to saw then just standing and cutting would the cutting angle make a difference????

The hang angle is important how the power of the sawyer is presented to wood. Sawing is allways parting power in two directions donward and forward. You need the right mix of both or otherwise the saw will stuck or glide over the wood.

Cheers
Pedder
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#26
What do teeth and sharpening have anything to do with the op's topic? He is talking about the handle, not the saw.

For me, it is comfort.

Simon
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#27
(04-13-2022, 03:28 PM)wmickley Wrote: The hang angle is dependent on the depth of cut. You can see that on traditional saws the shallower the saw the higher the angle. A handle that extends down below the tooth line is not quite functional.

I can't see how that would be a problem of any saw esp. noch a back saw
Just clamp the workpiece higher in the holding devise.

Or do I misunderstand you? Could you draw the problem?

Cheers
Pedder
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#28
(04-14-2022, 04:16 AM)Pedder Wrote: I can't see how that would be a problem of any saw esp. noch a back saw
Just clamp the workpiece higher in the holding devise.

Or do I misunderstand you? Could you draw the problem?

Cheers
Pedder

Warren can explain better, but I’ll offer my 2 cents. When you don’t have electric saws, you come to rely on hand saws. And our usage of these tools sometimes extends beyond what is today typical.

It’s not uncommon for me to run a saw all the way through a cut to give me the benefit of the entire saw. Some joints, like sliding dts, are often performed with the saw 100% in the cut, such that the distance from the toothed edge to the bottom most portion of the handle defines the depth of cut.

In general, I would say most people I see using saws:
Grip the handles too tightly
Push down on the saw like it’s cutting like a knife
Only use maybe the middle 50% of the blade
Most important - they pitch the handle up instead of down at the end of the cut. They just sorta give up. Hand keeps moving forward, but the saw is just rotating. This should have been #1. My hand doesn’t go back and forth when I saw. It’s like it’s in a large bowl. As the cut progresses, I’m pitching the toe up and engaging coarser heel teeth, using my momentum to advance the cut. My single stroke could easily cut twice what other people do. It’s a trick and an easy one to learn. Hope everybody either does this or follows my description.

When you saw full time, you learn to use much more of the saw blade. There are a bunch of saws out there whose handles hang so low it limits the saws effectiveness.
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#29
(04-14-2022, 12:10 AM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: What do teeth and sharpening have anything to do with the op's topic? He is talking about the handle, not the saw.

For me, it is comfort.

Simon
I didn’t follow what or who you are referring to, but I disagree with the statement as written.

Teeth and handle angles are linked. On a rip saw, high hang angles produce downforce only essential when you have a dull saw. Low hang angles are more efficient, but the saw could become virtually unusable when dull.

Dovetail saws, too high hang angle, too coarse teeth or too high rake (meaning too square with the edge) can be difficult to start.

Handle geometry and teeth are linked.
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#30
(04-14-2022, 04:36 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: Some joints, like sliding dts, are often performed with the saw 100% in the cut, such that the distance from the toothed edge to the bottom most portion of the handle defines the depth of cut.

Ok, on a sliding dovetail saw (Gratsäge in Germany or Stairsaw in UK) the handle should be above the tooftline. But you won't cut sliding dovetails with a dovetail saw. Hte teeth will clogg soon.

this is what a comfortable sliding dovetail saw should look like:

[Image: IMG_0117.JPG]

Cheers
Pedder
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