Going off of Pedders post
#41
Once the visible arris is formed with a knife or a chisel (or combination of the two), remove the waste with whatever gets your rocks off. Run a saw against a batten (any pedestrian crosscut saw wider than the batten is thick will work fine), accounting for the set of the saw on that side, and have at it. Or knife and chisel a deep channel and saw to the floor freehand. The only thing people should see is your knifed/chiseled line. If the arrises end up a little fuzzed up, the set of the saw was not taken into consideration vis-a-vis the batten. In Derek's construction it doesn't matter because that's the bottom of a case we're looking at. In other spots it might, though a plane pass or two might clean it up, there's no reason not to keep the knife wall pristine. That's what it's for.
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#42
(04-14-2022, 03:36 PM)CStan Wrote: Once the visible arris is formed with a knife or a chisel (or combination of the two), remove the waste with whatever gets your rocks off.  Run a saw against a batten (any pedestrian crosscut saw wider than the batten is thick will work fine), accounting for the set of the saw on that side, and have at it.  Or knife and chisel a deep channel and saw to the floor freehand.  The only thing people should see is your knifed/chiseled line.  If the arrises end up a little fuzzed up, the set of the saw was not taken into consideration vis-a-vis the batten.  In Derek's construction it doesn't matter because that's the bottom of a case we're looking at.  In other spots it might, though a plane pass or two might clean it up, there's no reason not to keep the knife wall pristine.  That's what it's for.

Agreed Charles. The stair saw predates back saws. You could say it’s the earliest form of back saw. It’s an essential tool for continental woodworkers who didn’t have or didn’t choose backsaws. Northern Europeans used frame saws and these things. They also used a lot more big sliders like Derek showed.

Anglo-Dutch woodworkers would have used their sash or tenon saws for this. Warren and I obviously use our smaller saws for smaller features, more common in Anglo-American case furniture.
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#43
More good information on backsaws in these few threads than I’ve read anywhere in 10 years. Thanks guys.
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#44
(04-14-2022, 05:33 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Agreed Charles. The stair saw predates back saws. You could say it’s the earliest form of back saw. It’s an essential tool for continental woodworkers who didn’t have or didn’t choose backsaws. Northern Europeans used frame saws and these things. They also used a lot more big sliders like Derek showed.

Anglo-Dutch woodworkers would have used their sash or tenon saws for this. Warren and I obviously use our smaller saws for smaller features, more common in Anglo-American case furniture.

I just use the backsaw that came with my "vintage" 1970s era Sears miter box.  It's sixteen inches long I think, I've never measured it come to think of it -- a poor man's carcase saw.

I sometimes imagine woodworkers forgetting that the saw in their miter boxes can be slid out and used for lots of thing besides the miter box.

I'm sure the saw has to be a rebadged Disston obviously well past that company's heyday.  Son of a gun stays sharp though.  For a long time.

But like I said, a knife makes the visible part (a central tenet of Western woodworking as far as I'm concerned). The rest of may or may not need to be fussed over. Comes down to the size of one's wallet and/or other priorities.
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#45
(04-14-2022, 06:50 AM)wmickley Wrote: I have no idea what you are talking about here, Ron. I have been making half blind dovetails for 45 years, but I don't know what digging out with the back of the saw refers to. Never heard of a "toothed half blind tool".

Sorry Warren. Got you confused with Adam.
BontzSawWorks.net
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#46
Adam, I think I follow your description of your sawing technique, but I'm not positive. Do you by any chance have a video you have done, or have seen a video with this technique you would recommend?

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#47
I remember when I was a kid of 9 or 10 and using my dads had saw of which I did not know if it was crosscut or rip.  All I wanted to do it cut a 2x4 across grain (which I did not know then) and tried to saw level along the line.  Found it was hard to start and keep going since it wanted to skip all over the place.  I then lowered the front of the blade to start the cut and pulled back and then forward to get it cutting.

That worked ok but I tried to lower the handle down on the back side to start the cut there and it did not work to well either but did start the cut.  So I then centered the saw between the two cuts and went to cutting.

The saw fit my hand pretty good and did not know about pointing my finger along the cut just to put all my arm into the sawing and getting it done.

I pretty much still do that;  I am saying that to ask if I can make the cutting better or what I am doing wrong or right??????


You guys have to remember you are pretty much at the top of the ladder of knowing how to use and kind of saw but me and others like me at the lower end or middle just have to move the saw around until it cuts along the line.  We do not know what all the terms are nor all the tech stuff just pick it up and saw.
It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

Hi, I'm Arlin's proud wife! His brain trma & meds-give memory probs and has pain from injuries, but all is well materially & financially.  
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#48
(04-15-2022, 01:01 AM)CStan Wrote: I just use the backsaw that came with my "vintage" 1970s era Sears miter box.  It's sixteen inches long I think, I've never measured it come to think of it -- a poor man's carcase saw.

I sometimes imagine woodworkers forgetting that the saw in their miter boxes can be slid out and used for lots of thing besides the miter box.

I'm sure the saw has to be a rebadged Disston obviously well past that company's heyday.  Son of a gun stays sharp though.  For a long time.

But like I said, a knife makes the visible part (a central tenet of Western woodworking as far as I'm concerned).  The rest of may or may not need to be fussed over.  Comes down to the size of one's wallet and/or other priorities.

Charles, I used to do the same ...

[Image: 10-Sawguide-settingup1.jpg]

[Image: Sliding-Dovetails-By-Hand1-html-57d533b3.jpg]

It was successful, but I think that I got lucky. The saw here is riding against a fence and creating the kerf of one side of a sliding dovetail. Lucky because the plate was pretty straight. Even so, it was not always completely registered, and the length of the blade made the control harder.

A shorter saw can navigate the line more easily, and requires less effort. 

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#49
I'm feeling like I went a little deeper with knife and chisel, but can't tell from your pictures. Lots of candle wax on batten and blade is a help as well.
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#50
(04-14-2022, 04:36 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: Warren can explain better, but I’ll offer my 2 cents. When you don’t have electric saws, you come to rely on hand saws. And our usage of these tools sometimes extends beyond what is today typical.

It’s not uncommon for me to run a saw all the way through a cut to give me the benefit of the entire saw. Some joints, like sliding dts, are often performed with the saw 100% in the cut, such that the distance from the toothed edge to the bottom most portion of the handle defines the depth of cut.

In general, I would say most people I see using saws:
Grip the handles too tightly
Push down on the saw like it’s cutting like a knife
Only use maybe the middle 50% of the blade
Most important - they pitch the handle up instead of down at the end of the cut. They just sorta give up. Hand keeps moving forward, but the saw is just rotating. This should have been #1. My hand doesn’t go back and forth when I saw. It’s like it’s in a large bowl. As the cut progresses, I’m pitching the toe up and engaging coarser heel teeth, using my momentum to advance the cut. My single stroke could easily cut twice what other people do. It’s a trick and an easy one to learn. Hope everybody either does this or follows my description.

When you saw full time, you learn to use much more of the saw blade. There are a bunch of saws out there whose handles hang so low it limits the saws effectiveness.

I am sorry buddy but I just do not understand what you are saying or intent.  Do you have a video a youtube on that??   Thanks
It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

Hi, I'm Arlin's proud wife! His brain trma & meds-give memory probs and has pain from injuries, but all is well materially & financially.  
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