Disston 3D Saw Vise
#31
(05-10-2022, 08:30 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: I don't know about that, the Grammercy most likely operates and opens/closes very smoothly.

It is true that it is not cast iron, but it's not a 100 year old tool either.

To me they're different. The 3D is old school, the Grammercy is a new version of old school.

OTOH, I have a Disston #2 that I have used a lot also, it's plenty big enough for most backsaws, it only needs to hold the teeth firmly so it doesn't chatter when you file.

I even think a DIY wooden vise works as good as any. I think that's what you said you're using. If tools were about need, I wouldn't have all the ones I do.

I don't know, I still think there's room to create a better mouse trap, all of this old technology is cool and I love it, but I just have to believe that magnets are a better solution. One day I might make one, not sure. I don't know too much about the Grammercy vises and/or where they're made, and honestly have never even used one I don't think. So go figure...just that I have some Grammercy tools and everything I have gotten from Joel has been good. I bet he's sold a lot of them, and I would even bet he's sold a lot more than get actually used over time...Same with LV and LN, can you imagine how many tools those respective companies have sold that just sit and don't even get used? I bet it's a staggering number...

Have a great day...

PS - looks like someone local wants to buy it for $100, go figure...no shipping required...LOL

.......................
Allan, you probably know this but lead is a very good vibration dampener... and they're kinda like a like a dead blow hammer..Old tyme machinists kept a lead hammer {I have a couple lead lathe hammer}..I have wanted someday to make a saw vise with he clamping jaws lined with lead flashing, just to see how well my theory would work...This wood vise by Rob Cosman would be a good candidate for it. What do you think...Other opinions also welcomed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRRMogzFOrA
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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#32
OMG Jack, this could be a long reply...

(05-10-2022, 10:14 PM)Timberwolf Wrote: Allan, you probably know this but lead is a very good vibration dampener... and they're kinda like a like a dead blow hammer..Old tyme machinists kept a lead hammer {I have a couple lead lathe hammer}..I have wanted someday to make a saw vise with he clamping jaws lined with lead flashing, just to see how well my theory would work...This wood vise by Rob Cosman would be a good candidate for it. What do you think...Other opinions also welcomed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRRMogzFOrA
I have always enjoyed the way Cosman teaches, he explains things in a way that are understandable to me. This is the first time I've seen that video, but so many things I have learned from Rob over the years. I cut my dovetails as he teaches on his videos, I have the VHS but don't know if I even have a VHS play to play them..., but the trick to use your plane to lay the the pins on to mark the tails, practical stuff like that. Cosman is not just a teacher though, he builds a lot. I have Alan Peter's book because of him, which is a great book in itself, but Cosman has just been very helpful to me with woodworking. That goes for Tage Frid, Frank Klaus, Sam Maloof, the Hall Bros who did the work on the Ultimate Bungalows, et al...

Tage Frid has my upmost respect, he was my kind of woodworker, just a practical by the seat of his pants artisan, I find myself similar. But I always remember a story that I heard you tell, which really describes this practical by the seat of his pants type personality. I could be wrong so correct me but I believe you had driven up to Highland Hardware to attend a class that Tage was giving and it seems it was about saws, or saws were a part of it. So, as I remember it Tage was showing how to re-set a handsaw, and I think he laid it on a table saw and laid a board over it, and wacked it a bunch of times to flatten the teeth, and the guy from Highland was a bit shocked and said, "Hey, you're making marks on the table!", and Tage replied, "Now it looks like mine!". I probably screwed that story up, but I still laugh about that from time to time whenever I'm setting the teeth on a saw...LOL

Ok, onto the vise. Yes, this is an excellent DIY vise, and Cosman points out one of the problems i tried to elude to. This is that there is very little blade at the heel of the plate. This is exactly why I mentioned making the jaws thin, so it took up the least amount of space as possible, as on most small 8" saws with only like 1-1/2" of plate under the back, you don't have very much space under the cheek, depending on the type of handle that is on the saw. Because of that I have made saws that had the cheek of the handle to sit up higher, but I didn't like the perspective, but this is a concern. If you look at the small dovetail saw he explains this on, there is very little blade at the rear.

Because of that, I have thought if there would be a way to have a thinner jaw made out of alloy only. I think the lead would work well, even brass would be nicer as it is softer than a spring steel plate. I'm used cam locking levers from Lee Valley years ago, but cam levers are common and can be bought at McMaster-Carr, often cheaper but the price at LV wasn't bad...Notice how the Disston 3D locking handle and the Acme handle are very similar, they look very similar to modern cam locking levers like LV and McMaster-Carr sell. I have though of how you could have one handle that cam'd both ends so you only had to use one lever, but two small levers, one on each end could also work, just not as refined.

To take it one step further, and why I mention magnets is because I just find them so useful. I've used rare earth magnets on numerous projects, even the first turdlette I turned on a lathe out of brass had a rare earth magnet press fit into the bottom, I use it to pick up swarf around the lathe/mill. I know a guy on YT that gave me 2 sets with his company logo on them, at the Bar Z Bash in Rancho Cucamonga. Side note, Stan Zinkosky lives just down the street from where the Maloof house was moved in Rancho Cucamonga, and they usually have a tour of Sam's house, his workers still make chairs there in the shop, and a huge wood storage that is sure to give any woodworker envy...such a cool place...I digress...

Coming back to the saw vise, I have also pondered these modern mag switches we have that allow you to lock/release the magnets. So I thought if one could incorporate the thin knife like jaw, they only need to be long enough to cover half the thickness of the handle, so about 3/8" as most handles are about 3/4", so I would make the thin jaw at least 1/2" deep on each side. I was thinking exotic wood with a groove to hold this narrow jaw.

Primarily one needs to hold the teeth up as close to the bottom of the gullets as possible, so the entire tooth and is exposed to file. Either lever actuated or magnet actuated, there must be an inexpensive way to manufacture a saw vise like that. TonyZ would be a guy that could pull that off, even i think I could design something just not do production unless it was small QTYs since I really don't use NC at all, all of my machines are analog/mechanical.

Any comments? You gotta at least confirm or deny that Tage Frid story!
Winkgrin
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#33
Would magnets on a saw vise wind up collecting filing swarf?
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#34
(05-11-2022, 12:17 AM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: OMG Jack, this could be a long reply...

I have always enjoyed the way Cosman teaches, he explains things in a way that are understandable to me. This is the first time I've seen that video, but so many things I have learned from Rob over the years. I cut my dovetails as he teaches on his videos, I have the VHS but don't know if I even have a VHS play to play them..., but the trick to use your plane to lay the the pins on to mark the tails, practical stuff like that. Cosman is not just a teacher though, he builds a lot. I have Alan Peter's book because of him, which is a great book in itself, but Cosman has just been very helpful to me with woodworking. That goes for Tage Frid, Frank Klaus, Sam Maloof, the Hall Bros who did the work on the Ultimate Bungalows, et al...

Tage Frid has my upmost respect, he was my kind of woodworker, just a practical by the seat of his pants artisan, I find myself similar. But I always remember a story that I heard you tell, which really describes this practical by the seat of his pants type personality. I could be wrong so correct me but I believe you had driven up to Highland Hardware to attend a class that Tage was giving and it seems it was about saws, or saws were a part of it. So, as I remember it Tage was showing how to re-set a handsaw, and I think he laid it on a table saw and laid a board over it, and wacked it a bunch of times to flatten the teeth, and the guy from Highland was a bit shocked and said, "Hey, you're making marks on the table!", and Tage replied, "Now it looks like mine!". I probably screwed that story up, but I still laugh about that from time to time whenever I'm setting the teeth on a saw...LOL

Ok, onto the vise. Yes, this is an excellent DIY vise, and Cosman points out one of the problems i tried to elude to. This is that there is very little blade at the heel of the plate. This is exactly why I mentioned making the jaws thin, so it took up the least amount of space as possible, as on most small 8" saws with only like 1-1/2" of plate under the back, you don't have very much space under the cheek, depending on the type of handle that is on the saw. Because of that I have made saws that had the cheek of the handle to sit up higher, but I didn't like the perspective, but this is a concern. If you look at the small dovetail saw he explains this on, there is very little blade at the rear.

Because of that, I have thought if there would be a way to have a thinner jaw made out of alloy only. I think the lead would work well, even brass would be nicer as it is softer than a spring steel plate. I'm used cam locking levers from Lee Valley years ago, but cam levers are common and can be bought at McMaster-Carr, often cheaper but the price at LV wasn't bad...Notice how the Disston 3D locking handle and the Acme handle are very similar, they look very similar to modern cam locking levers like LV and McMaster-Carr sell. I have though of how you could have one handle that cam'd both ends so you only had to use one lever, but two small levers, one on each end could also work, just not as refined.

To take it one step further, and why I mention magnets is because I just find them so useful. I've used rare earth magnets on numerous projects, even the first turdlette I turned on a lathe out of brass had a rare earth magnet press fit into the bottom, I use it to pick up swarf around the lathe/mill. I know a guy on YT that gave me 2 sets with his company logo on them, at the Bar Z Bash in Rancho Cucamonga. Side note, Stan Zinkosky lives just down the street from where the Maloof house was moved in Rancho Cucamonga, and they usually have a tour of Sam's house, his workers still make chairs there in the shop, and a huge wood storage that is sure to give any woodworker envy...such a cool place...I digress...

Coming back to the saw vise, I have also pondered these modern mag switches we have that allow you to lock/release the magnets. So I thought if one could incorporate the thin knife like jaw, they only need to be long enough to cover half the thickness of the handle, so about 3/8" as most handles are about 3/4", so I would make the thin jaw at least 1/2" deep on each side. I was thinking exotic wood with a groove to hold this narrow jaw.

Primarily one needs to hold the teeth up as close to the bottom of the gullets as possible, so the entire tooth and is exposed to file. Either lever actuated or magnet actuated, there must be an inexpensive way to manufacture a saw vise like that. TonyZ would be a guy that could pull that off, even i think I could design something just not do production unless it was small QTYs since I really don't use NC at all, all of my machines are analog/mechanical.

Any comments? You gotta at least confirm or deny that Tage Frid story!
Winkgrin
......................
First, let me agree with Bill's comments about magnets collecting swarf from the saw plate..I think iron filings would complicate the process, but I could be wrong..It was on my mind just like it was on Bill's..

I do remember about the story of Tage Frid and the method he used to even the set in the teeth!!!!!
Laugh

But my comment was primarily on the use of lead to LINE the jaws of the saw vise with the idea that the soft metal would DAMPEN those pesky vibrations as the file does its job...I have an ancient worksite Sawhorse vise used by carpenter house builders nearly every day to touch up their saws, and one of them has some type of "rubber-like" material to clamp the saw plate..I propose to use soft lead flashing to replace that. I am very curious how it would work.If I were younger, I would try it myself. I have a strong feeling that it "might" just help to produce a sharper tooth line.
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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#35
When I used the disston, I'd line the jaws with a few layers of blue painter's tape, which worked for me.
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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#36
(05-11-2022, 01:07 PM)Admiral Wrote: When I used the disston, I'd line the jaws with a few layers of blue painter's tape, which worked for me.

........
That also sound like a plan, but lead has always piqued my curiosity because machinists could use anything they wanted for their hammers, but lead is their choice..One fellow on the machinist forum made and sold them and mrpete222 has a video showing his way of making one...I am also thinking about using a fine India stone to polish and sharpen the teeth after filing. It may be overkill but I have never been able to leave "well enough" alone!!!!
Crazy
Big Grin:
"If you don't read newspapers you're uninformed...If you do read newspapers, you're misinformed.....Mark Twain

Jack Edgar, Sgt. USMC Korea, the Forgotten War 50/55
Get off my lawn !
Upset





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#37
Thumbs Up 
I can't scan it, because the binding technique that Popular Mechanics used isn't amenable to flattening the pages for scanning; but I'm reading through prewar editions of the Pop Mechanics' Shopnotes, and the 1941 edition, currently on my reading table, suggests what amounts to a giant hardwood clothespin, to slip on the saw plate just next to the vise, to absorb vibrations.  Tempting idea for its simplicity.
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#38
(05-11-2022, 10:21 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: First, let me agree with Bill's comments about magnets collecting swarf from the saw plate..I think iron filings would complicate the process, but I could be wrong..It was on my mind just like it was on Bill's..
Yes, and I have thought about that some...I mentioned before that I think you would only need levers or magnets on the ends, so I think it would be possible to have the magnets far enough out of the way that they will not get any filings on them, but it is possible that some would get on them when opening/closing, I think it would be easy enough to wipe off. This may also be a case to make for using cam levers.
Wink

(05-11-2022, 10:21 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: I do remember about the story of Tage Frid and the method he used to even the set in the teeth!!!!!
Laugh

But my comment was primarily on the use of lead to LINE the jaws of the saw vise with the idea that the soft metal would DAMPEN those pesky vibrations as the file does its job...
Yes, I think the lead would work, but lead wears easy, so it all depends. I commented about about brass, as it is also soft and much more durable, plus is polishes up really nice and could look nice with some exotic woods. Lead is a much better dampening material.

(05-11-2022, 10:21 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: "rubber-like" material to clamp the saw plate..I propose to use soft lead flashing to replace that.
Yeah, machinists like to dip tool handles in that rubber stuff also. I have never used it, but imagine it would dampen some, but not as good as lead. I would fear lead deforming over time though...but it is a much better dampener and it's so soft.  Babbitt comes to mind, they make both lead babbitt and tin babbitt and the tin is much more durable and recommended for high speed. There was an old company, name escapes me, that sold anti-friction babbit that many people use.

I think the best way is to have nice fitting jaws. If you look at the Acme, the jaws are removable. I plan to take them off and true them up on the mill. I hadn't thought of doing that to the Disston 3D, but they do disassemble, but not sure how hard those would be to fixture. Hmmm...something to consider. I think Admiral's use of the blue tape is not bad to fill gaps if the jaws warp over time, or not mar the plate. As long as they clamp tight on the blade, it really doesn't matter if they're not perfect, I was just thinking the mill could true them up. OTOH, Disston and/or Acme may have designed the cast iron so it would flex and clamp tightly, that I'm not sure of. Heavy cast iron usually doesn't flex. I think it would need to be tested. I have never really had any issues with my two 3D vises. They seem to work as intended and are more rigid and solid than any others I have.
(05-11-2022, 10:21 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: mrpete222 has a video showing his way of making one...
Lyle has some great tips. He's such a nice guy. Lyle is a guy that makes me feel good about my Iron Acquisition Disorder (IAD) . I have told him more than once, he's got the rust bug bad, and I would even say worse than me. Lyle tends to buy anything and as many of anything he can find. I try to be selective so I will end up with a full working shop, I don't need 200 vintage saws...seriously, I only have 2 hands to work them with. If a woodworker really had to, one could get by with a single saw.

(05-11-2022, 10:21 AM)Timberwolf Wrote: I am also thinking about using a fine India stone to polish and sharpen the teeth after filing.[/quote[
This is an interesting thought, but the burrs might actually help cut. This gives me an idea though. I wonder if using a precision ground flat stone on the saw plate, not the teeth, would help the saw in the kerf? I use beeswax for this purpose, I think I bought it from Grammercy or LV. But beeswax is sticky and gummy. I think this is why Tom Law used to like to blue the plate, it does provide some smoothness to the finish. Others have done it also, but AFAIK Tom might have been the first. I taught myself how to sharpen initially with the Tom Law video, I have a lot of those classics...T-9 might also work better as a saw lubricant, I have not tried it myself.

(05-11-2022, 06:04 PM)Bill_Houghton Wrote: giant hardwood clothespin, to slip on the saw plate just next to the vise, to absorb vibrations.
Not a bad idea, I've never tried it. Normally I don't like more than about 1" sticking past the end of the jaw though, and a good solid vise like the 3D will hold it pretty darn solid.

Do you have anything you would want to trade for this 3D vise? I do drive up 101 fairly often when I go to Lake County, I drive right by Sebastopol up 101, both heading up and heading back home. I can't wait for the day I drive up there and stay there for the weekend...
Wink

I have a local guy interested in the 3D, but nothing firm yet. Not an issue if I keep it, just like all the other tools I own, I doubt it will be the last piece of rusty old iron I buy...
Rolleyes
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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#39
Alan,

I have a 3D vise, and don't think I need two; but thanks.

Now, if you had a pair of Starrett 85A or 85C dividers lying around, not being useful...then we should talk.
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#40
(05-12-2022, 11:27 AM)Bill_Houghton Wrote: Alan,

I have a 3D vise, and don't think I need two; but thanks.

Now, if you had a pair of Starrett 85A or 85C dividers lying around, not being useful...then we should talk.
Hah! I had to google that, too many numbers...I do have one, but I use it for woodworking. As you may know, Starrett is actually machinists tools for the most part, AFAIK.

I will be honest, I have never seen the 85C extra tips/jaws, that's pretty cool. I need to go see how i modified mine to see if I could will use those on mine. I just have an 85A, unless they make a bigger one. Mine is about 12" tall, they're pretty big.

You could probably find them easy on Ebay, which makes rust hunting easy these days...so much easier to find what you want.
Smile

I understand about the vise, as I have said many times, I have 2 of them already. They are great vises!

I just talked to a friend in WI, it's 94 degrees there today. Here in CA it's about 76 with the window open and gorgeous outside, but it sure has been getting cold at night. Cooler up by you, so stay warm.
Alan
Geometry was the most critical/useful mathematics class I had, and it didn't even teach me mathematics.
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