restoring some big dogs
#21
(01-30-2023, 07:45 AM)adamcherubini Wrote: Tom,

Looks great. I really like long planes and always have one handy.

Can you say a little more about your setup? I’ve heard people say the frogs add preload, so they recommend grinding with them in place. Do you inspect the flatness before and after? How?

Last, interested in opinions if any of this matters. I think my opinion is, if the wear (surface just in front of the mouth)  is a little worn (hollow) the plane may struggle. Almost feel as tho this could be more trouble for a wooden plane than an iron one??? Anybody think long iron planes flex more than woodies?

Any one that says that fogs need to be in place know nothing about metal working. On the bed rock design it is a machined angled surface against machined angled surface , no chance of distortion.  On the Stanley Bailey design the steps are the same so it is flat surface against flat surface. at the thickest part of the plane. Do you really think you can distort a plane with a screw driver?

Yes, I inspect the bottom before picking up the bottom with the wheel. I need the know the condition of the bottom and where the highest portion of the plane is. I only take off .001 at it time and it the plane bottom is out .010 I do not want to pick up on a low spot.

I used to check after grinding but after several years of grinding planes I can hear the plane go flat.

Tom
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#22
Sure look good Tom
As of this time I am not teaching vets to turn. Also please do not send any items to me without prior notification.  Thank You Everyone.

It is always the right time, to do the right thing.
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#23
(02-02-2023, 06:20 PM)tablesawtom Wrote: Any one that says that fogs need to be in place know nothing about metal working. On the bed rock design it is a machined angled surface against machined angled surface , no chance of distortion.  On the Stanley Bailey design the steps are the same so it is flat surface against flat surface. at the thickest part of the plane. Do you really think you can distort a plane with a screw driver?

Yes, I inspect the bottom before picking up the bottom with the wheel. I need the know the condition of the bottom and where the highest portion of the plane is. I only take off .001 at it time and it the plane bottom is out .010 I do not want to pick up on a low spot.

I used to check after grinding but after several years of grinding planes I can hear the plane go flat.

Tom
You showed a picture of a test indicator mounted to a surface gage. I assume you used that to best fit the plane to the grinder’s table. All I was asking was what kind of TIR do you see after the sole is where you wanted it. I guess I thought, since you were probably doing it anyway, you’d have data to tell us, what sort of wear or distortion you see before grinding.

I forget who said they grind with the frog in place. May have been tom lie Nielsen. I think he knows a lot about metal working, but I could be wrong (that it was him). Yes, you can generate a lot of load with screw threads, but I agree with you that deflections in use could be greater.

For grinding, which I know little about, I’d be thinking about heat, and how if the sole got hot, I assume the grinder would make the sole concave. That can even happen to a tool like 123 block that has a constant x section. The guy from suburban tool has a good video about this. They don’t take light passes on their blocks I think for this reason.

But the root of my question is: assuming you are grinding not to make the tool pretty, but to improve its utility, what sort of wear and distortion do you see? If you ran that test indicator over that sole after it cooled, would you get 0 TIR? Or just a couple tenths?
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#24
(02-12-2023, 07:34 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: You showed a picture of a test indicator mounted to a surface gage. I assume you used that to best fit the plane to the grinder’s table. All I was asking was what kind of TIR do you see after the sole is where you wanted it. I guess I thought, since you were probably doing it anyway, you’d have data to tell us, what sort of wear or distortion you see before grinding.

I forget who said they grind with the frog in place. May have been tom lie Nielsen. I think he knows a lot about metal working, but I could be wrong (that it was him). Yes, you can generate a lot of load with screw threads, but I agree with you that deflections in use could be greater.

For grinding, which I know little about, I’d be thinking about heat, and how if the sole got hot, I assume the grinder would make the sole concave. That can even happen to a tool like 123 block that has a constant x section. The guy from suburban tool has a good video about this. They don’t take light passes on their blocks I think for this reason.

But the root of my question is: assuming you are grinding not to make the tool pretty, but to improve its utility, what sort of wear and distortion do you see? If you ran that test indicator over that sole after it cooled, would you get 0 TIR? Or just a couple tenths?

For every one reading this: TIR is short for total indicator runout. If you put a bolt in a chuck on a drill press and  turn the spindle by hand using a belt The amount that the contact point which moves is TIR.  it is in relation to the Center Line of the bolt which is neutral and doesn't move. I understand what he is asking but what he wants is a actual distance measurement.

Hope this helps some of you. The indicator I used is a Brown and Sharp. It is a dial test indicator. It is for comparison only. A dial test is not a direct reading indicator. Depending on where the point is positioned one can get an arc point error. Intrepid indicators are guaranteed to be direct reading if the point of the indicator is within 15 degree of straight out from the indicator, if the indicator is straight horizontal or vertical.  I believe Brown and sharp is the same but I wouldn't put money on it.

Because of the arc point error factor, what I was doing is checking the four corners in relation to the magnetic chuck's surface, which is a known flat surface. I was comparing the surface to a known point on the indicator usually set at zero. I have no idea what the distance is from the chuck only that the 4 corners are the same distance from the datum surface which is in this case  the chuck. All 4 corners will never come out the same I find the happy medium and then finish tightening the vise or vises. I find the highest point on the bottom so I know where to position the wheel. Since the indicator is not direct reading I do not know what that distance is.

To answer the question, since the dial on the handle is direct reading. The amount I usually remove is around .008 to .015. The most is .030.  That is from high spot to clean up or almost clean up. it does not mean that lets say .010 is removed from every spot on the plane. The closer one gets to flat the more material there is that needs to be removed.

Now on what  I call a travel indicator, it is direct reading. But if it is not in prefect horizontal or vertical alignment you get a cosine error in the direct reading. And if you are not in direct sight line with the indicator you also have a parallax error also. But usually a parallax error occurs when reading a rule like setting a table saw fence for distance. If you are not straight on looking at the lines you have an error.

Tom
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#25
As far as the 1,2,3 block comment.  For every action there is a reaction. For ever cut there is a resistance  to being cut. There is more resistance to being cut in the middle of a part than at the ends. The heavier the cut the more resistance there is to being cut.  It is called tool pressure. That is why a hollow is ground. There is a hollow in the one to three blocks, you just got a song and dance routine about it. That is why spark out passes are taken. I,2,3 blocks to not need to be prefect.
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#26
I will respond to distorting a plane bottom in a separate post.

Tom
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#27
(02-16-2023, 10:30 AM)tablesawtom Wrote: To answer the question, since the dial on the handle is direct reading. The amount I usually remove is around .008 to .015. The most is .030.  That is from high spot to clean up or almost clean up. it does not mean that lets say .010 is removed from every spot on the plane. The closer one gets to flat the more material there is that needs to be removed.

Tom

Thanks Tom. I was wondering if anyone was thinking “what’s this guy on about? You don't need a surface grinder to take off a few thou.” I’ve seen YouTubers “flattening” planes with sand paper. (Really not the same as a surface grinder.)

I guess I kinda suspected you were grinding because you were taking off more than a few thou. Also guessing you were doing that because the soles are out that much.
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#28
Surface grinder is the piece of equipment needed, but as important is the fixturing to the grinder. But the most important is the experience of the machinist.

I agree with Tom’s opinion about the frog not being necessarily needed to be attached to the sole. Afterall, it is a separate moving part.

I am not a machinist, but I employ several and also a toolmaker.
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
www.metaltech-pm.com
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#29
(02-21-2023, 10:21 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Thanks Tom. I was wondering if anyone was thinking “what’s this guy on about? You don't need a surface grinder to take off a few thou.” I’ve seen YouTubers “flattening” planes with sand paper. (Really not the same as a surface grinder.)

I guess I kinda suspected you were grinding because you were taking off more than a few thou. Also guessing you were doing that because the soles are out that much.

What is this guy all about? well I will tell you. I have seen all that crap about flattening with sand paper. First of all old cast iron doesn't sand very well it is harder than the newer stuff  They always need flattened, Why,  If it takes me 1 1/2 hours to grind a #4 on a grinder costing between $35,000 and $65,000 depending on make and model, that is designed to do only one thing and that is to remove metal. How do you figure you can flatten with emery paper? People who don't know any better always grab bad information as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You have no way of actually measuring anything.  And asked wrongly about TIR when what you wanted was a distance dimension which a dial  test indicator is no capable of giving it. Need I go on?  You have no way of verifying anything is flat other than some black marks from a felt tipped pin are removed. . That rates right up there with being able to distort 3/4s of an inch of cast iron with a screw driver, because someone trying to sell a magazine article said so. But I am supposed to give you TIR  which I cant with an instrument that is not capable of doing so, backed up by the National Burau of Standards.

I will tell you what, send me a plane you have flattened. I will put it on the coordinate measuring machine ( CMM) at work and I will post the results. and all the measurements shown, are taken at 68 degrees F heat sinked for 24 hours,  and  will hold up at the Supreme Court. I will even tell you if you are left or right handed.

I ran my first engine late in 1961. I took a 3 hour vocational metals in my junior year of high school. I cut my first and only gear at 16. Took Trades an Industries my senior year where you worked a half a day and went to school a half a day. That was 30 hours a week at Berry Tool and Die. 5 hours a day and 5 on Saturday. He started my on my apprentice when I graduated. Took time out for Navy, resumed my apprenticeship  Served a 4 year apprenticeship recognized  by the federal government. I am papered. Worked in the trade as a tool maker for 15 years. Then took 10 years of to teach Tool And Die at Hawkeye institute of Technology later to become Hawkeye community Collage. Went back to industry for another 17 years or so as a Tool and Die Maker. My last 6 years was working in a mold shop. I also was put into their apprentice ship recognize by the State of Iowa. I served 5 years as a lead mold maker earning top dollar even though I  was an apprentice. I am a twice papered journeyman.  And at 77 years of age I still work 15 hours a week in a CNC production shop  building jigs and fixtures for them. That is Who I Am. 

From 1960-61 to present, then only thing I have done is work at my trade and I worked today. So why are you constantly trying to belittle me thinking I don't know what I am talking about. It seems like it is you that are lacking . Please list your qualifications in your rebuttal.  Or drop it 

I posted  about my router table top in the machine woodworking section, So post some pictures of your machining skills.

Tom
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#30
Apologies Tom. I’m not communicating effectively.
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