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I am making a frame for a xylophone from pine. As this is an instrument, the frame should not move and keep its dimensions more or less. I want to paint it with matte black spray paint, but a maker of this instrument suggested to me to paint a coat of black stain under it as a kind of base coat, that would allow using less spray paint afterwards. He suggested a solvent based stain, that is a kind of industrial stain, it is very strong and has terrible oudor. So I decided to use something ligther. I wondered what if I just used water based stain, I had enough of the smell of solvents in this project, moreover the cleaning of brushes would be a smaller issue. But I am not sure if it is a good idea, to use such a kind of stain for something that is very sensitive stuff, and should not warp at all? What do you think? Somewhere I read it may work in case I added a coat of dewaxed shellac first. In case this is true, should I sand the shellac before applying the water based stain, or I can just apply it without any sanding?
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(06-18-2023, 08:03 PM)Bencuri Wrote: I am making a frame for a xylophone from pine. As this is an instrument, the frame should not move and keep its dimensions more or less. I want to paint it with matte black spray paint, but a maker of this instrument suggested to me to paint a coat of black stain under it as a kind of base coat, that would allow using less spray paint afterwards. He suggested a solvent based stain, that is a kind of industrial stain, it is very strong and has terrible oudor. So I decided to use something ligther. I wondered what if I just used water based stain, I had enough of the smell of solvents in this project, moreover the cleaning of brushes would be a smaller issue. But I am not sure if it is a good idea, to use such a kind of stain for something that is very sensitive stuff, and should not warp at all? What do you think? Somewhere I read it may work in case I added a coat of dewaxed shellac first. In case this is true, should I sand the shellac before applying the water based stain, or I can just apply it without any sanding?
If the frame is something around 3/4" thick then I don't think you'd have any issues with warping, but if it's really thin, like 1/4" or less, then it could happen, at least temporarily, until the water has completely evaporated. There's no way to predict whether or not it will happen other than to try it on a test piece.
Putting shellac on the work piece first will reduce absorption of the stain. I wouldn't do that unless you prove it works OK; again, a test sample.
Have you considered an oil based stain? They do not have near the odor of solvent based stains, and they won't cause your wood to warp.
John
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I used water based dye on a scroll saw project once. I had dipped the piece into a dye bath, to get into all the little inside cuts. I wiped/blew off the excess and set it on a paper towel to dry. Next day, it had curled up to resemble a potato chip. I flipped it over, so the other side would dry and it eventually flattened out.
Moral of the story, if using water based stains or dyes, make sure to allow adequate airflow around the whole piece, while it dries.
If you are going down a river at 2 mph and your canoe loses a wheel, how much pancake mix would you need to shingle your roof?
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(06-19-2023, 09:29 AM)jteneyck Wrote: If the frame is something around 3/4" thick then I don't think you'd have any issues with warping, but if it's really thin, like 1/4" or less, then it could happen, at least temporarily, until the water has completely evaporated. There's no way to predict whether or not it will happen other than to try it on a test piece.
Putting shellac on the work piece first will reduce absorption of the stain. I wouldn't do that unless you prove it works OK; again, a test sample.
Have you considered an oil based stain? They do not have near the odor of solvent based stains, and they won't cause your wood to warp.
John
I have been using oil based stains, but I am a bit fed up with the oudor of the solvents. I came to have an idea today however, what if I used oil based as first coat, and water based as second? Then I would spare a round of using solvent based stuff, and maybe the water would not be that much of an issue regarding warpage. Can it work?
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(06-19-2023, 08:34 PM)Bencuri Wrote: I have been using oil based stains, but I am a bit fed up with the oudor of the solvents. I came to have an idea today however, what if I used oil based as first coat, and water based as second? Then I would spare a round of using solvent based stuff, and maybe the water would not be that much of an issue regarding warpage. Can it work?
No, stick with one or the other. What brand of OB stain are you using? The solvent smell in many is not very strong.
John
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idk how a black stain would make for less paint unless a low solid paint is used. ive found black to be the easiest color to get full coverage with fewest coats.
suggestion- use gloss black first. just enough for full coverage. final coat matt. test on some scrap.
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(06-19-2023, 08:45 PM)jteneyck Wrote: No, stick with one or the other. What brand of OB stain are you using? The solvent smell in many is not very strong.
John
I am not in the US, so the brand won't tell too much to you. The problem however is it is difficult to find an oil stain here that flares evenly, even if you thin them. There are lots of issues: pits, uneven surface, cracks, bubbles, flaws, thickened sections, brushmarks. Most is crap. Personally I don't know any that gives nice outcome with brushes. The water based is good, but water is still a concern for me the workpiece being an instrument. Maybe I will go the shellac way on the sealer and use the water based that way, it might be okay. At least the water based flares fine. And no oudors. I use a mask anyway, but need to dry rags and paper every time when washing the brush and cleaning things. it is annoying to smell the fumes from that all the time in the yard.
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(06-21-2023, 09:21 PM)Bencuri Wrote: I am not in the US, so the brand won't tell too much to you. The problem however is it is difficult to find an oil stain here that flares evenly, even if you thin them. There are lots of issues: pits, uneven surface, cracks, bubbles, flaws, thickened sections, brushmarks. Most is crap. Personally I don't know any that gives nice outcome with brushes. The water based is good, but water is still a concern for me the workpiece being an instrument. Maybe I will go the shellac way on the sealer and use the water based that way, it might be okay. At least the water based flares fine. And no oudors. I use a mask anyway, but need to dry rags and paper every time when washing the brush and cleaning things. it is annoying to smell the fumes from that all the time in the yard.
Maybe your definition of stain is different than what most of us think, as applies to woodworking. Stain, whether oil, solvent, or waterborne, is something you apply, let stand for a few minutes, and then wipe completely off. There will never be cracks, thick sections, nor brushmarks. Bubbles and pits can sometimes happen on really porous woods, but that's due to the wood, not the stain. The only exception is spray - no wipe stains, but if you were using one of those you wouldn't be complaining about brush marks.
It sounds like what you refer to as stain is either paint or products we might apply to our outdoor deck or house shingles.
John
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(06-22-2023, 08:49 AM)jteneyck Wrote: Maybe your definition of stain is different than what most of us think, as applies to woodworking. Stain, whether oil, solvent, or waterborne, is something you apply, let stand for a few minutes, and then wipe completely off. There will never be cracks, thick sections, nor brushmarks. Bubbles and pits can sometimes happen on really porous woods, but that's due to the wood, not the stain. The only exception is spray - no wipe stains, but if you were using one of those you wouldn't be complaining about brush marks.
It sounds like what you refer to as stain is either paint or products we might apply to our outdoor deck or house shingles.
John
You may completely be right. Actually, here I never ever saw a - let us call it- 'colorant' that is manufactured to be used the applying and wiping way. Anyway, the product in concert at this moment is just about what you write, a thick paint, that we call enamel, and we use it when we want to disguise the wood and make it well protected. It does not penetrate deep, and you don't need to put a finish on this, it is a finish in itself. But I will write about it in more detail in another thread soon, because I have problems with applying this stuff, too. They behave very much like varnish anyway, same problems. Maybe they do consist of varnish among others, anyway, I don't know, I never heard about the ingreedients.
Apart from this, the question is there, whether the water based one will warp the wood. The pieces I have are 1" thick, so according to your suggestion they won't.
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(06-22-2023, 06:42 PM)Bencuri Wrote: You may completely be right. Actually, here I never ever saw a - let us call it- 'colorant' that is manufactured to be used the applying and wiping way. Anyway, the product in concert at this moment is just about what you write, a thick paint, that we call enamel, and we use it when we want to disguise the wood and make it well protected. It does not penetrate deep, and you don't need to put a finish on this, it is a finish in itself. But I will write about it in more detail in another thread soon, because I have problems with applying this stuff, too. They behave very much like varnish anyway, same problems. Maybe they do consist of varnish among others, anyway, I don't know, I never heard about the ingreedients.
Apart from this, the question is there, whether the water based one will warp the wood. The pieces I have are 1" thick, so according to your suggestion they won't.
Waterbased finishes won't warp something 1" thick unless perhaps the piece is very wide. Still, I doubt it would happen even then.
John
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