Enamel paint does not flow out on first coat

[Bencuri]

You have several issues you are dealing with at the same time.  Fixing only one will not get you where you want to be.

1. You really should sand - even fresh planed wood.  I can see a surface that isn't glass smooth in your first picture.  It's smooth, but not glass smooth. Won't solve your problem by itself though.   

2. Your paint is too thick and is drying too fast.  You must thin it with an appropriate solvent for your paint.  Since you won't tell us what it is, can't help you with specifics.

3.Lamp oil will likely work just fine, but you still might need to thin the paint with a solvent.   And a bigger problem for you is "what is lamp oil" in Hungary ?  Kerosene ?  Liquid parafin ?  Olive oil ?   And what did mr. youtoob use for lamp oil and in what kind/type and brand of paint ????   The exact components might make the difference -or- they might not.  Raw linseed oil will work in most enamels too.

The whole purpose of all these "additives" is to make the paint dry at a slower pace - so that the brush marks have time to flatten out before they skin over.  Remember -this stuff also extends the number of hours before you can re-coat your project !

This is the stuff we're talking about for use with WATER BASED PAINTS.   I'll be you a plate of your mother's gulyas that this company has an additive for OIL Based Enamels.

https://www.festekcenter.hu/tikkurila-fl...nalo-2-5-l

Here it is in Germany: which I believe ships to Hungary.
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Owatrol-300-S...r=8-8&th=1

I would like to "stick" to solvent based stuff at the moment. I have seen the Tikkurila Water based conditioner before, that won't help in this case. But as an idea for the future it might be useful, so thank you for that. The other one, the Owatrol, I cannot see its ingreedients, but I can definately get that one, my friends can bring it for me from Germany.

The solvent for the paint you see in the photo is called synthetic thinner here, but I have no idea what that exactly means. For this product I cannot find the sheet for the particular variant that the brand produces, but for a different brand, these are listed as ingreedients of the synthetic solvent: naphta, isopropil-alcohol, turpentine oil. Nut sure though if this is all or just the ones that need to be listed.
This is the data sheet for the paint you can see on my photos, in English:
https://www.chromos-svjetlost.hr/upload_...opcoat.pdf

Of the exact chemical compositions of these paints, I can only refer to what the data sheets say. usually they contain alkyd resin, but no other things mentioned. So additional components are unknown to me. What I know for sure, that we do not call any by the name "oil paint", but there is a type of paint that we call oil paint, it is a kind of old fashioned paint that people look for to paint benches and pipes, but they rarely use it. Usually what is generally sold runs under the name enamel. Both for water based and solvent based. Personally I haven't seen anyone buying the exact oil paint named product here for ages.

Back to the surface preparation: I will definately test this, that I will prepare it more carefully, and will also try sanding between coats. However one thing is still not clear for me: you can see on the first photo that the black paint perfectly flown out on the surface. The texture you can see are the pores and the grain of the wood that is a piece of black locust anyway. So what's the use of sanding it, when the paint flown out already fine on the planed surface? The problem only became present on the second coat. But the ridges on the second coat may not have relation to the surface under it, because the first coat have no ridges at all.

Besides, the bubble problem worries me very much, they are already present on the nice first coat, but there is much less. However even if they are less and small, they ruin the visual appearance already. I fear even with dilution there will be some appearing. That is not acceptable now.  But we'll see. I will try diluting as well, and see what happens.

I don't know the type of the brush I have, I asked it to be good quality, but nothing else I know of these.

[jteneyck]

As I suspected, it's clear you are not using a typical oil based paint, one where the thinner is mineral spirits.  What you have is a product with a solvent that gives you much less time for flow out.  The instructions say to apply the coating at 30 microns.  The solids represent about 50% of the product, so that means your wet film thickness should be around 60 microns.  That's 0.002" for us Americans, and that's incredibly thin, and be difficult to do except by spraying, and probably only after thinning.  No way you are going to do that with a brush w/o a lot of thinning.  And that's the problem.  The volatile solvent in that product gives very little time for it to flow out before it flashes over (sets).  

Have you asked the manufacturer for help, the type of retarder you should use to increase the time for flow out, etc. ?  Better still, buy a traditional oil based paint, one that uses mineral spirits as the thinner.  

John

[Bencuri]

As I suspected, it's clear you are not using a typical oil based paint, one where the thinner is mineral spirits.  What you have is a product with a solvent that gives you much less time for flow out.  The instructions say to apply the coating at 30 microns.  The solids represent about 50% of the product, so that means your wet film thickness should be around 60 microns.  That's 0.002" for us Americans, and that's incredibly thin, and be difficult to do except by spraying, and probably only after thinning.  No way you are going to do that with a brush w/o a lot of thinning.  And that's the problem.  The volatile solvent in that product gives very little time for it to flow out before it flashes over (sets).  

Have you asked the manufacturer for help, the type of retarder you should use to increase the time for flow out, etc. ?  Better still, buy a traditional oil based paint, one that uses mineral spirits as the thinner.  

John

I have checked such paints, there is oil paint from the brand, which manufactures the water based enamel that works for me. I checked what they write about their oil paint: interestingly in the manual of that paint it says: dilute with linseed oil 
  Can that one work? 

I have found some others as well. Will see. 

On the other hand I also thought of what if I would address this problem from a different aspect. There is a kind of Hard Top Oil, that is available here. It is a kind of ecofriendly product, but basically it is a varnish/oil blend. I have used that one for a while to replace varnishes, that never worked for me here either, same problems: bubbles, brushmarks, nasty dry spots, etc. Interstingly, that hard top oil works perfectly, even with a brush, it flows out prefectly, forms even surface with nice sheen, and not very prone to run after applied. What if I added pigments to it and use it as paint? Can it work? That product is way much easier to handle, very similar to shellac.

[jteneyck]

I have checked such paints, there is oil paint from the brand, which manufactures the water based enamel that works for me. I checked what they write about their oil paint: interestingly in the manual of that paint it says: dilute with linseed oil 
  Can that one work? 

I have found some others as well. Will see. 

On the other hand I also thought of what if I would address this problem from a different aspect. There is a kind of Hard Top Oil, that is available here. It is a kind of ecofriendly product, but basically it is a varnish/oil blend. I have used that one for a while to replace varnishes, that never worked for me here either, same problems: bubbles, brushmarks, nasty dry spots, etc. Interstingly, that hard top oil works perfectly, even with a brush, it flows out prefectly, forms even surface with nice sheen, and not very prone to run after applied. What if I added pigments to it and use it as paint? Can it work? That product is way much easier to handle, very similar to shellac.

Linseed oil was sometimes used to thin oil based paint but mineral spirits is a better choice if the objective is to lower the viscosity so it will spread better.  

If the hard top oils you are looking at are similar to Osmo Polyox or Rubio Monocoat, both European products, just use them.  One or both companies offers their product in several colors as well as a waterbased stain that can be applied first.  If you read the literature, it will tell you not to add other products.  Most importantly, those products are meant to be wiped off, completely.  You don't use them like paint.  

If you like shellac, but want black, or any other color, get some alcohol soluble dye and add it to the shellac.  I use Transtint dyes, and you can make any color, including opaque black.  Another option is to coat the wood with India Ink first, and then apply a clear coat of varnish, etc. over it.  Or just get some rattle can spray paint and spray the pieces.  

The black for these cabinets was done with India Ink and then sprayed with a waterborne lacquer.  The walnut was done with Osmo Polyox. 



These cabinets were done with Krylon spray paint (the rattle can stuff).




John

[Cabinet Monkey]

The other one, the Owatrol, I cannot see its ingreedients, but I can definately get that one, my friends can bring it for me from Germany.

Owatrol is the brand.   If Owatrol Floetrol is available in country, then Owatrol Oil must be too.  It's the same (or close enough) as our Penetrol.  Mostly Naptha, and some long chain oils, along with other witches brew. 

The solvent for the paint you see in the photo is called synthetic thinner here,

Mineral spirits for all practical purposes.  The catalog translation states the Thinner is a blend of mineral spirits and turpentine. 

Back to the surface preparation: I will definately test this, that I will prepare it more carefully, and will also try sanding between coats. However one thing is still not clear for me: you can see on the first photo that the black paint perfectly flown out on the surface. The texture you can see are the pores and the grain of the wood that is a piece of black locust anyway. So what's the use of sanding it, when the paint flown out already fine on the planed surface?

The "purpose" is that's the time honored and accepted process.  Do it , or don't it's your choice and your project.    Another thing you've forgotten or chose to ignore is your paint's requirement to use a suitable primer coat before you apply the first top coat.


You seem to think because your first coat is flat- that all other coats should be too.  It doesn't always work that way.

The sooner you try what's been suggested here, the quicker you'll see better results.

Your problem(s):  paint is too thick............add appropriate thinner in small amounts till improvement shown
paint is drying too fast...................add a retarder like owatrol oil to slow down drying and allow brush strokes to flatten out.

doing only one of these may produce satisfactory results by itself -or-  both may be required.  But, you have to test them out;  not hope or guess.   The reason your first sample turns out fine is because the wood has sucked in the paint / brush strokes before it had a chance to dry.  If you had primed that board like advised by the manufacturer, you would have seen the brushmarks with your first topcoat of Kemolux lak.   Which, leads us back to the original suggestions:

• THIN YOUR PAINT
  

• RETARD ITS DRYING TIME
  

Do those and stop fixating on why, then report back to us.

[Bencuri]

Do those and stop fixating on why, then report back to us.

That can come only later because I had spent so much money for these paints that I need to take a break. I tried thinning the paint, it does help flow out. But the resulting color is not nice (looks like raw dyed surface), and the bubble dots are still there. Also, even if the surface dries flat, there are shinier stripes visible reflecting in proper light. Alltogether, water based leaves a much more even surface, that is even flow out and even sheen. But soon I will try the oil paint that jteneyck suggested. Maybe it will bring some difference.

There is one method though that I found works with the recent solvent based paints out of the box: wiping the paint on by rag. It needs 3-4 layers though. But in case done correctly, the sheen is even, and there are no bubbles, no runs. But it does not leave and enamel finish, it rather looks like a heavy layer stain on wood. But the coveragae is even, no reflecting of the wood color from below.

[Woodenfish]

I would have sealed the wood with wax free shellac prior to painting oil base polyurethane varnish. I would also have primed the wood to seal it prior to painting it with oil base paint. There was a comment made that the problem did not occur with latex paint but only with oil. Someone else mentioned that the oil paint was not cured enough for a second coat. I am with that comment as being accurate as the first coat is still off gassing. Laying an oil film finish over porous wood surfaces will always give you some chance of problems with it curing. There will s a chemical reaction going on in the finish creating heat below the surface which expands the air and any moisture trapped in the wood pores.

At this point of having already coated the wood I would allow it to fully cure and then follow the paint manufacturer’s directions for recoating old work.

[Bencuri]

I would have sealed the wood with wax free shellac prior to painting oil base polyurethane varnish. I would also have primed the wood to seal it prior to painting it with oil  base paint. There was a comment made that the problem did not occur with latex paint but only with oil. Someone else mentioned that the oil paint was not cured enough for a second coat. I am with that comment as being accurate as the first coat is still off gassing. Laying an oil film finish over porous wood surfaces will always give you some chance of problems with it curing. There will s a chemical reaction going on in the finish creating heat below the surface which expands the air and any moisture trapped in the wood pores.

At this point of having already coated the wood I would allow it to fully cure and then follow the paint manufacturer’s directions for recoating old work.

I don't think there is any relation to curing in this case. I followed the manufacturer's instructions, it doesn't mention I need to use a primer. It mentions recoating can be done after 16 hours, I have waited 24. Moreover, there were pieces where I waited a week. And having porous surface or not makes no sense as I experienced. These paints are suitable for both wood and metal, some for even plastic, if you paint them on the latter two, the outcome is the same. Moreover if gases would affect the curing, why is it that when wiping, I have no problem at all? No brushmarks, no bubbles, even if I wipe the paint right onto the bare wood? I think these paints are just not suitable for applying by brush. I could spray them, but in case I want a nice surface, I cannot do it with a brush. There are varnishes manufactured by the same brands here, and they behave the same. Except, for wiping, they leave very awful surface with the same problems I mentioned so far. The only way you can use them is turn them into wiping varnish, and apply them in a lot of coats. But as soon as you try to apply them with a brush, problems start appearing.