opening a can of worms

[tablesawtom]

Just because you have been told something long enough doesn't make it true. The world is not flat so you can't fall off the end of the known world.

1. Because of the design of the frog on a Bailey designed plane, the frog moves forward and backwards on corresponding seats.

     

   

The beauty of the design is,  hypothetically speaking,  the the two machines seats on the plane body correspond to the two machined surfaces or the frog and the distance is the same at any given point, so that no matter where the frog is positioned when moving forward or backward, the distance between the two mating surfaces remain the same. I say hypothetically because there is always tolerances in machining so it may or not be a prefect
rectangle.

2. Carbide inserted cutters or a jointer or planner are considered by most to be a must have option on that type of a machine. How ever it has come to attention a lot of people that tightening the inserts as tight as one can get them is resulting in a lot of broken inserts. The wedging effect of the flat head screws is expanding the inserts and cause the insert to brake. And by torqueing the insert to a specific foot pounds, the insert breakage can be eliminated. Okay so what are you saying? I am saying that just because it is possible to over tighten something doesn't mean it is necessary to do so.

It is said that a frog needs to be fastened to the body when flattening so that the screws don't distort the body of the plane. The thinnest part where the the screw goes through the frog and the thickest part is of the plane body is where the taped hole is. To put it bluntly, if you think you can distort a plane body by torqueing a screw with a screw driver then maybe you should rethink your position. Just because you have been told something like the world is flat doesn't make it true.

3, On a hand plane the cutting force wants to push the blade back. Science says for every action there is a reaction. The hand pushes the plane blade into the wood being cut. But the resistance of the wood not wanting to be cut pushes the blade back. Also the wood being cut rises in the cut therefore pushing the blade back down against the frog. So the cutting force or splitting force of the wood being cut or split is down against the blade and back toward the frog.

4. On a table saw it is always a good idea to use a push block, or push stick, when ripping a piece of wood. Most push sticks have a little something that hooks over the end of the board so that when a board can no longer be pushed by the hand it can still be fed passed the blade. It takes a little downward pressure to keep the board flat on the table, but not as much as the pressure required to complete the cut on the board.

5. The frog adjusting screw is able to move the frog forward or backwards because of the little piece screwed on the back of the frog which, by the way, takes all of the cutting force ( resistance to being cut) away and the amount of pressure that the screws need to hold the frog down is minimal. All that the screws that hold the frog down in place is minimal.

6. So what are you saying? I am saying is tat all you need to do is to tighten down the frog retaining screw tight enough so that the frog can't be lifted up , but can still be moved forward or backward with the frog adjusting. I move my frog once in a blue mood so I am not going the wear out the adjusting screw or the threaded hole .Just tight ant over tight on the screws.

FOR the RECORD, The cutter can be advanced forward or backwards on a Bailey plane without removing the lever cap or blade and chip beaker or making any adjustments because it moves on a parallel design. With the Bedrock flat top design the cutter can be moved forward or backwards but still the cutter has to be readjusted. 

I conclusion every body know that the Lever Cap  and blade assemble needs to be remover to get excess the the frog screws on a Baily plane and that the Bedrock is far superior because every one has been told often enough by people that it is so. The Bedrock design which says the design is better is only better because marketing says so. 

I have proved over and over to myself that the Baily design works and I hope you try out what I have written. And just because it can be tightened enough so no one including yourself can loosen it is not always the thing to do. Sometimes just tight enough to do the job is good enough.

Tom

[C. in Indy]

Good Observations, Sir

I also find the Bailey pattern frogs work really nice if I set them to make a continuous "ramp" from the frog through the plane base.   That is, I position my frog a bit backward from a really tight mouth setting.   I let the chipbreaker do its magic for controlling tearout, with a fairly open mouth.

[stav]

I take it that you recently purchased a Bailey that had screws so tight you couldn't unscrew them.


All good observations.

Do you have anything on needing the plane to be under tension when flattening the sole? That really never made sense.to me. The blade attaches to the frog mostly. How could that twist the cast iron of the plane body?

[AHill]

Good advice. I've always adjusted my frog so that I can adjust my cutting depth without having to remove the chip breaker/blade. I've seen experts even adjust the depth on a jointer during the cut. It makes the plane a whole lot more versatile.

[bandit571]

One other "tip":   When adjusting for depth of cut,  when done , make sure you have the tab up into the slot on the chipbreaker set so that the iron will NOT slide back when it is pushed into the wood...so, make sure you "spin" the "slack" out. 

Lets say, you have been retracting the iron to reduce the depth....and we all "know" about the sloppy tab to hole fits....make sure the last direction you spin the wheel is to almost push the iron forward....

[tablesawtom]

I take it that you recently purchased a Bailey that had screws so tight you couldn't unscrew them.


All good observations.

Do you have anything on needing the plane to be under tension when flattening the sole? That really never made sense.to me. The blade attaches to the frog mostly. How could that twist the cast iron of the plane body?

All good observations. No I haven't purchased on that is to tight resonantly but I have in the past. Cast iron doesn't flex, usually it just brakes. The threaded  holes are in the thickest part of the plane body and the weakest part is the frog where the screw goes through. Truthfully one can not put enough torque to do any body flexing with a screw driver, but if you are on you tube and want to sound knowable you can always regurgitate that wives tail. It has been stated often enough, so one with no mechanical skills or background will believe it. Just because one wants to believe they know something others don't, doesn't make it true.

Take the flat top Bedrock design for example. Yes, you can loosen the frog without taking the blade off but the when tightening it down the screw point goes into a corresponding hole in the hold down. So now you have a 90 degree transfer of torque and it is not direct force clamping it down. The bearing down spot is on the bottom of the circumference of the screw only.

The beauty of the bedrock design is that the frog can not twist from side to side making it much easier to adjust the cutting edge side to side. But if you move the frog you will have to readjust the depth of cut on the blade. However the blade will not have to be adjusted size to side.  But if one tightens down the frog on a Bailey tight, then marketing says the new planes are better and the Baileys are not something you need. Rob Cosmen is good at selling the Wood River planes.

The older Bailey planes are better than the newer ones however. On the older ones the the frogs were machined to closer tolerances  at the front of the frog limiting the possibility of toe movement side to side.

My disclaimer is personally I have a collection of Keen Kutter K series planes. That series of plane is just a Bedrock round side with casting numbers changed. My two #4s have the mouth set for for very fine shavings. One has a slightly rounded blade for smoothing flat surfaces and the other straight. And so it is with all of my other planes except the mouth opening is more open. Once set I don't change it. 

So my writing about the Baily design has less effect on me than it has on others. But I just thought I would pass alone the information so one can make a knowable decision when buying.  If you want to spend your money on a newer high dollar plane, then by all means buy it. Just don't let marketing fool  you into thinking something is true when it is just marketing.

To me there is a no better feeling than knowing that when I pick up my plane I will get a nice shaving from it and that I have somewhat mastered some part of the woodworking skills I need.

I wish you success with your venture.

Tom