Preconditioner before staining?

[BrentDH]

I am building a bed out of cherry that I have asked a few questions about in this forum. I made a mistake in that I asked what kind of wood she wanted it built from before discussing the final color. Now that most of the pieces were cut out she chose a rather dark stain called American walnut.  Lesson learned - final color determined before cutting any wood. I am using a quality brand and type of stain that I have had good results with in the past. It is not big box store stuff. 

I am having a lot of blotchiness. I read a few things and one suggestion was to sand to a finer grit. I sanded to 400 and I will admit it is significantly better, but still not something I can be proud of. Another thing I read suggested a preconditioner. I am willing to give that a try. I see there is something called a preconditioner at my local Menards. I do not know what it is even made from. I also thought I read about using extremely diluted shellac?  

Have any of you used a preconditioner to minimize blotchiness in cherry?  What did you use and what was the application process. 

Thanks from an extremely discourage woodworker.

[jteneyck]

I am building a bed out of cherry that I have asked a few questions about in this forum. I made a mistake in that I asked what kind of wood she wanted it built from before discussing the final color. Now that most of the pieces were cut out she chose a rather dark stain called American walnut.  Lesson learned - final color determined before cutting any wood. I am using a quality brand and type of stain that I have had good results with in the past. It is not big box store stuff. 

I am having a lot of blotchiness. I read a few things and one suggestion was to sand to a finer grit. I sanded to 400 and I will admit it is significantly better, but still not something I can be proud of. Another thing I read suggested a preconditioner. I am willing to give that a try. I see there is something called a preconditioner at my local Menards. I do not know what it is even made from. I also thought I read about using extremely diluted shellac?  

Have any of you used a preconditioner to minimize blotchiness in cherry?  What did you use and what was the application process. 

Thanks from an extremely discourage woodworker.

I feel your pain.  I made a vanity for a lady who insisted I use cherry and stain it walnut, because that was how a color sample she got somewhere was made.  I couldn't convince her to just use walnut.  I thought I would dye the cherry to get the walnut color.  My test samples looked good, but when I started on the cabinet I got terrible blotchiness.  Turns out, my finish samples didn't include any blotch prone wood.  Ooops.  I had to strip it to remove as much of the dye as I could and then find a different approach. 

I ended up using a custom SW's BAC wiping stain to get the right color and avoid blotching.  I can't say enough good things about that product.  I'm not saying it's fool proof in every situation, but it worked with this cherry.   

Here's how it looked after finishing.  The color sample she gave me is the small piece beside the cabinet.  



In more normal light, this is what it looks like, a real walnut color.  It's not perfect, but far, far better than using dye.   



I wish you luck. 

John

[BrentDH]

Thanks for jumping in John.  I am using Old Masters wiping stain. I would assume it would be very similar to the Sherwin Williams product but maybe I am wrong. Do you know what BAC stands for?

I went to the big city today (MSP) and stopped at a Rockler store. I bought a quart of General Finishes oil based preconditioner on their advice. Just about puked on the $40 price tag, but it will be well worth it if it fixes my problems. 

I too had a sample that was maybe 3”x12” that looked pretty good but the extra wide board I chose for the raised panels is sure behaving differently. I think the clear finish will moderate some of my problems but I am reluctant to move on to that step because that is a lot harder to remove than just stain.

[jteneyck]

Thanks for jumping in John.  I am using Old Masters wiping stain. I would assume it would be very similar to the Sherwin Williams product but maybe I am wrong. Do you know what BAC stands for?

I went to the big city today (MSP) and stopped at a Rockler store. I bought a quart of General Finishes oil based preconditioner on their advice. Just about puked on the $40 price tag, but it will be well worth it if it fixes my problems. 

I too had a sample that was maybe 3”x12” that looked pretty good but the extra wide board I chose for the raised panels is sure behaving differently. I think the clear finish will moderate some of my problems but I am reluctant to move on to that step because that is a lot harder to remove than just stain.

BAC?  No clue what it stands for, but it's nothing like an oil-based wiping stain.  It contains mineral spirits and Naptha, I think, so it dries very quickly.  It's made with pigments AND dyes, so you get deep color in one application.  It has essentially no binder, unlike most oil-based stains, so you need to spray a sealer coat over it after it dries.  If you try to use a hand applied finish it will pull it up and turn it into mud.  Sorry, I forgot to mention that before.  You won't see it advertised at SW's, you pretty much have to ask for it.  They won't have any in stock, either.  They might have a brochure and that will show you the stock colors, but they can adjust the color to tweak it any way you need.  I spent almost an hour in the store once, getting them to adjust the color until it gave a really good match to the color sample I had.  Even then, I had to tweak it further once I tried using it.  Transtint dye first diluted in a little lacquer thinner works great in it.  

I'll be interested to hear how the pre-conditioner works.  I never had any luck with them.  The best results I got was by first using the neutral base of the stain I was using.  Another option many use is to apply a 1 or 2 lb cut of dewaxed shellac prior to staining.  Since the great cherry to walnut disaster I almost always spray toners now when working with blotchy woods.  

John

[Gary G™]

For blotchy wood, I’ve used a 1-1/2 or 2 lb. cut of shellac.
Freshly made from flakes. Super blonde should be good.
I got mine from https://www.shellac.net years ago.

[BrentDH]

Well the preconditioner didn't work worth a crap.  I had sanded to 400 grit based on some advice and it helped a little.  I tried the preconditioner without success but then read that you shouldn't sand past 180 when using the preconditioner.  So I roughed one back up (down?) to 180 and tried the preconditioner again with horrible results.  I guess I will make a trek to the Sherwin Williams store.

[BrentDH]

I went to Sherwin Williams today and talked to them about their BAC wiping stain.  I am pretty sure he said that BAC stands for "blend and color".  But he wasn't optimistic that I would get any better results with it than I was with my Old Masters wiping stain.  I am going to talk to my daughter about alternate colors that might not show the blotchiness as badly and see where that takes us.  We aren't really trying to match any existing colors, the walnut color was just something they liked when they went to the store and looked at stain samples.

[jteneyck]

I went to Sherwin Williams today and talked to them about their BAC wiping stain.  I am pretty sure he said that BAC stands for "blend and color".  But he wasn't optimistic that I would get any better results with it than I was with my Old Masters wiping stain.  I am going to talk to my daughter about alternate colors that might not show the blotchiness as badly and see where that takes us.  We aren't really trying to match any existing colors, the walnut color was just something they liked when they went to the store and looked at stain samples.

I can't offer a comparison of the two products, but the BAC wiping stain worked really well for me.  But I want to follow up on sanding.  Yes, sanding to a higher grit will help reduce blotching.  325 or 400 will show much less blotching than 150 to 180.  That may not be enough on its own, however, which is what your results confirm, so then it's time to consider a shellac wash coat first, or a totally different approach.  

I now spray dye or toners when I have a difficult blotching problem.  The key when using a dye is to spray no more than the wood can absorb.  The blotch prone areas will suck in the dye, which is OK as long as the surrounding area has no excess dye that can flow to the blotchy area.  Light coats, no blotching.  

If you can't spray, then I'd try the shellac wash coat, maybe even two or three coats sanded back between coats.  The idea is to fill up the thirsty blotch prone areas.  Using the neutral stain base afterwards, prior to the colored stain, would be an additional step to consider.  

John

[Bøb]

I was fortunate enough to lay in a good supply of Charles Neil's BLOTCH CONTROL and it has worked great ...  that product is no longer available, but the WOOD WHISPERER did a video where he make up his own concoction, and it seems to have worked very well  also.  Maybe look it up and see what you think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjPX1byriM8

[BrentDH]

Thanks Bob.  That is an excellent video.  I like the Wood Whisperer.  That looks like it will be worth trying.