Crucible Holdfasts

[Admiral]

  Unlike the British Ebay sellers, the Europeans don't seem all that interested in doing business with Americans.

LOL, its gonna get worse . . . . .

[Adnick]

That's too bad, have a daughter who lives on the south coast in France, she when there for college and married a Frenchman....so I have an interpreter.

Andy

[MattP]

So let me get this straight.  You hope Chris and Raney will be unsuccessful in selling a few ductile cast holdfasts at $135 each, because if they are successful, then Joel at TFFW, who is currently selling his innovative and perfectly serviceable holdfasts for $35 per pair, will feel a need to raise his price to meet the competition?  And then everybody will go broke paying $135 apiece?  Whose theory of the market is this?  Not Adam Smith’s for sure.

I don't know if Adam Smith had anything to say about it or not, but it is a simple application of the positive relationship between the price of a good and the price of a substitute good.

It's also just common sense; if Joel sees Schwarz selling holdfasts as fast as he can make them at $135, it's perfectly rational for Joel to say "gee, there's a big gap in price between his luxury good and my substitute good. I can close that gap some without losing business."

Not only is that common sense, that's the reason for the positive relationship between one good and its substitute's price.




ETA: the fact that we can sit here and use the names of most of the suppliers of this product ought to be a big clue to you that it is not a competitive market and that the normal supply and demand curve is inapplicable in such a market.

[AHill]

A real metallurgy expert might want to chime in here, but I believe ductile cast iron is way more elastic ("springy") than regular
cast iron, and is "springy " enough to perform well as a holdfast, hence the excellent performance of the LN and other cast ductile iron holdfasts.
I wonder if anyone has bothered to perform an experiment to see what the forces are for the various types of iron/steel holdfasts.
Crucible has certainly found a sub-niche market within the niche market for holdfasts: I'll bet those who are building ever newer (old newly discovered) benches will be the buyers.  Hope it works out for them.

My creds:  B.Sc. Metallurgical Engineering, Colorado School of Mines, 1978

You are correct.  Sort of.  There are several factors at play here (yield strength, elongation at yield, and modulus of elasticity).  The most relevant one here is Modulus of Elasticity ("E"), a measure of "stiffness", or the ability to resist forces without yielding or breaking.  Gray cast iron E = 14.5 x 10^6 psi.  Ductile Cast Iron E = 24 x 10^6 psi.  High Carbon Steel (1095)  E = 28 x 10^6 psi.  The higher the number, the more resistant it is to bending forces. A lower number means it either breaks or yields (deforms) under a lower load when the yield strength of the metal is exceeded.  The elongation at yield for gray cast iron is pretty low compared to the others, hence, it's brittle.

Using cast ductile iron allows them to make the shape with virtually no machining and no bending to form the holdfast.  Just make the mold, cast the steel, then grind or cut off the flashing, then grind a flat on the pad.  Done.  Lie Nielsen holdfasts are also cast ductile iron, and they are only $50 each.  Sure, there's more metal in a Crucible holdfast, but I'm rather doubting there's more labor required to make them.

[AHill]

I don't know if Adam Smith had anything to say about it or not, but it is a simple application of the positive relationship between the price of a good and the price of a substitute good.

It's also just common sense; if Joel sees Schwarz selling holdfasts as fast as he can make them at $135, it's perfectly rational for Joel to say "gee, there's a big gap in price between his luxury good and my substitute good. I can close that gap some without losing business."

Not only is that common sense, that's the reason for the positive relationship between one good and its substitute's price.




ETA: the fact that we can sit here and use the names of most of the suppliers of this product ought to be a big clue to you that it is not a competitive market and that the normal supply and demand curve is inapplicable in such a market.

Price goes up, demand goes down.  Econ 101.

[MattP]

Price goes up, demand goes down.  Econ 101.

you forgot the other half of that lesson: price goes up, demand goes down in a perfectly free and efficient market in which all buyers and sellers have complete information and buyers have ready access to substitute goods from competitors.

[Mark Allen]

... the other scenario ... Maybe Joel isn't charging enough for his goods to get fair market value for them. The big problem here is that there isn't enough vendors of a holdfast to validate the prices people are charging. Is $135 too much? Is $35 too little? Hard to say when you have just a handful of vendors. If the market was bigger and more vendors/manufacturers, we would have a much better idea of the price the market would bear. I don't see a problem with Crucible Tools pricing ... some segment of the market will bear that price. The question is if there is enough of that market segment to keep them in business and make that a datapoint of price validation.

[overland]

First, let's wish Crucible Tools all the best. We need more tool makers, not fewer. Even if you can't afford the most expensive tools, even if you're determined to resist the siren call of the newest and the best, it's good to have makers out there setting a standard for excellence. And no one can dispute that Chris and Rainey have done more than most for the cause of hand tool woodworking, for which we should be grateful. That said, if you want a good holdfast, there are plenty of choices out there. There are a number of blacksmiths around the country who make them for 3/4" holes, if you look around. They're a little more expensive than Joel's, but still reasonable, if that's the way you want to go. And I suspect we'll see more of them making the large French-style holdfasts if, as seems to be happening, a market begins to develop for them.

[Paul-in-Plymouth]

I included first names of suppliers to remind all here that we are talking about people, not simply an abstract company name, and in this case some very talented and engaging people most of us know, at least by reputation.   The hope expressed that Crucible Tool not be successful selling their product struck me as unnecessarily harsh and mean-spirited. 

The rationale given is that if Crucible is successful in selling holdfasts at $135, it will (could, might) allow prices to rise at the low-price end of a market with few suppliers, to the detriment of woodworkers generally.   (This view ignores even more pricey offerings we have seen earlier, such as Benchcrafted’s version at ~$200.  It also ignores that the premium and low ends of the tool market, and many other markets, may not even behave like they’re part of the same market. )

But a quick search  at Amazon, for example, reveals at least half a dozen offerings at less than $50 of things called “holdfasts” that look sort-of like holdfasts and appear to be intended for use holding things fast, with names like Rockler, Wood River, Eagle America, Jorgensen, etc.  I don’t know how good they are, but I have to conclude there is no shortage of would-be players at the low end of the market to keep prices in check.  And there are plenty of other more expensive options, as Overland points out.  

Even if that were not the case, I’d have to say, “So what?”  Why should that be Crucible’s problem on one hand and TFWW’s on the other?  They should make hay while the sun shines.

I hope Crucible Tool is a smashing success.   I’m not sure they’ve found the product yet that will be their ticket, but I do look forward to seeing what they have to offer at Handworks 2017 in May.

[AHill]

I gotta believe that Crucible did their research and decided that another 3/4" holdfast priced at their price point would not find a good enough market position to make them money. So, their better mousetrap is the 1" version in cast ductile iron. Time will tell if their holdfast will find success. I wish them well. I don't think I'll be one of their customers - I just don't have a need for a 1" holdfast, no matter what the cost. I would guess that most of their customers are either going to be folks who are curious or folks building new workbenches.