1/4" Ply for veneer

[Dave Diaman]

Him speak truth, KemoSabe!
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Without the comment about the (uug) contact cement.

 Out of curiosity what do you think would be a better adhesive for this application? I am talking about laminating a 1/4" piece of ply onto a piece of 3/4 ply. If he had a vacuum press then contact cement would not be my first choice but without one I don't really see a better option. Contact cement gets a bad rap but it has its applications and works amazingly well at times especially for lamination purposes.

[RPE1]

I can see you gluing ending up with a warp in the table as well.  You should consider a flat gluing surface with the some sort of ceiling mounted (down force) clamping. Plywood usually has a bow of some sort in it.  The thinner it is, the more chance of it.  Getting it clamped on the interior for good adhesion is a problem.  Use of caws can help, but overhead clamping would be best.  Pipe clamps fastened to the ceiling in some fashion.  The glue up will most likely mirror the surface it is laying on during clamping.  Use of screws from the underside could help.
RP

[Cooler]

Our local lumber store (M.L. Condon) sells red oak plywood (interior grade) in 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" by 4' x 8' according to a price list I found on line, but I don't know if it is a current price list.

I would imagine that there are similar lumber dealers in most major metropolitan areas that sell sheet goods (other than Home Depot, Menards, or Lowes).

[Dave Diaman]

Cooler, If he is just shooting for 1" thick ply you are absolutely right. I believe the last time I checked cabinet grade maple and oak ply were roughly $60 a sheet. It is about $70 if you want it prefinished. I haven't checked anything thicker. Just do a Google search for plywood distributer in in your area. Most of the ones I have dealt with will sell to the public in smaller quantities. I buy all the prefinished ply for cabinets when I build them from a big local distributer.

RPE1, The problems you addressed with laminating the 1/4" to the 3/4" was the reason I suggested contact cement. It will give you a nice bubble free bond as long as you apply enough glue to each surface.

[jteneyck]

I always just use PVA glue. Because it requires a bit of glue, whatever brand  (that I have heard of before) that is cheapest wins. If there is a side which won't show, I use 1" long screws into the non-show side so I can "clamp" the entire works together. After the glue is dried you can leave them in, or remove them. If it is a heavy duty item, I'll leave them in. Because you are going to edge band it, you can slightly vary the width of the edging. With that in mind once it was dry I would square the sides on the TS to make for a perfect square. No matter how hard you try to match the pieces as you glue them together, there is a bit of sliding that occurs. Cut square, those mis-matched edges go away. After you know the size of a panel you have left, you can then figure the banding width to make the panel the size you need.

This ^.  A foam roller or really fine toothed spreader works great for applying the right amount of yellow glue uniformly.  What's the right amount?  The amount that leaves a wet film but isn't so thick that the top panel swims around uncontrollably when you lay it in place.  And like veneer work, I only apply glue to one panel.  

John

[Cooler]

This ^.  A foam roller or really fine toothed spreader works great for applying the right amount of yellow glue uniformly.  What's the right amount?  The amount that leaves a wet film but isn't so thick that the top panel swims around uncontrollably when you lay it in place.  And like veneer work, I only apply glue to one panel.  

John

I drive 4 small wire brads in the surface (out of the way of any of the cuts) and snip them off so only about 1/16" remains proud of the surface.  Once I have the sheet located correctly I press down on the brads and the sheets will not slide around.  On a big glue up like this I would rest another sheet of 3/4" sheet goods and add weight over that sheet  evenly.  A large vacuum bag would be ideal but I don't have one.  The sheet of 3/4" stock helps distribute the weight evenly.  But the weights should be distributed fairly evenly  anyway. 

The brads will be cut away  later so this is an effective way to keep stuff from sliding around during glue-ups.  

I would be reluctant to use contact adhesive on a large sheet unless I had additional people to help me set it in place.

[Dave Diaman]

I would be reluctant to use contact adhesive on a large sheet unless I had additional people to help me set it in place.

Cooler, In the commercial shop I work in sometimes all we use is contact cement for laminating plywood together. We have tried other ways but always end up with voids. For the application we are using most of the laminations voids are a really big deal because they show up big time in an x-ray. I actually always do the lamination by myself. I simply cut 5 or 6 1"x 1" strips and cover two side with packing tape. I then lay those across one sheet and set the other sheet on top. After everything is lined up I start pulling the sticks out from one end. This is the same way I make laminate counter tops or attach paper backed veneer. With veneer or laminate you use a roller to make sure you have everything bonded. When it is plywood I'm laminating I just go for a walk on it making sure I get the whole piece. I have looked at pieces of ply that were laminated in the early 80's. The plywood is delaminating but the bond between the two sheets is still strong.

[mike4244]

George, I built kitchen cabinets for my daughter 20 years ago. One floor to ceiling cabinet was veneered on one side, the other side was against a wall. To make a long story short the veneer was ruined when plumbers installed a whirlpool tub upstairs and the tub plumbing leaked. Actually flooded the kitchen. The doors ,drawers and frame were solid red oak and they were saved. The veneer bubbled. I broke off the loose veneer , decided to install 1/4" red oak plywood over the birch  plywood instead of removing the cabinet and veneering again.
I used panel adhesive and a few brad nails under the crown molding to hold it up til the adhesive dried. Several braces across the to a wall held the rest of the panel . If I had a pin nailer then I could use that instead of braces.
The kitchen still looks good after 20+ years.
No need to veneer opposite side since the panel is not really a veneer.
mike

[FloridaRetiree]

 Out of curiosity what do you think would be a better adhesive for this application? I am talking about laminating a 1/4" piece of ply onto a piece of 3/4 ply. If he had a vacuum press then contact cement would not be my first choice but without one I don't really see a better option. Contact cement gets a bad rap but it has its applications and works amazingly well at times especially for lamination purposes.

Frankly I don't know.

I have been out of the industry as a professional for 20-some years and have not kept up on all the latest adhesive options.

One thing that has not been mentioned is how easy it is to make a bag press.  I used to buy the plastic auto seat cover material off a large roll from a local supplier.  Ditto for the appropriate glue for the two edges.  The rear was folded over and the front was open for inserting the work project and sealed with multiple little clamps.  The hardware was a plumbing fitting on which to hook the vacuum pump -- from an air conditioning supply firm. 

In all fairness have no idea if this will help the OP since I don't know where he lives or his workshop space, etc. 

My shop was here in Palm Beach County so everything was readily available.

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Another option is to go to a local cabinet shop and have them order some 1" plywood if that is really necessary.  I could get such things delivered the next day from my wholesale suppliers and frequently resold hardwoods, plywood and professional hardware to local hobbyists.  They were very nice, a joy to know and help and I only marked prices up 10% (showed them my invoice) if they paid cash.

Another service I offered was cutting up plywood they purchased to size. 

They would give me a cut list and I would do it.

My 10' slider was much quicker and much much more accurate than the typical 10" table saws most hobbyists have. 

Even at $60/hour I could do in 20 or 30 minutes what would take them all day -- more importantly more accurately. 

I had a great run, met a lot of nice people, and earned a decent living.

[Dave Diaman]

FloridaRetiree, you are right. Getting a vacuum set up is not as expensive as most people think. My first one was a $59 HVAC vacuum pump from Harbor Freight and a cheap premade vinyl bag. I looked at a bunch of different options for a bag but the premade vinyl ones are fairly inexpensive, come with everything you need in one package and are nearly indestructible. By the time I would have bought all the parts and pieces it was almost the same price and the bag would have not been nearly as nice. Sometimes there is just no replacement for good old contact cement though. I still haven't found a better material for applying laminate. On top of all that you will get a happy feeling from smelling all the fumes while you work with it.