What happened to Wenzolff and Sons?

[Mtobey]

Do you make panel saws to?  I know for sure you make wonderful saws.

Arlin and Spouse- I am just saying hello because you are such fine people. As you know, we "share." I am alone, unfortunately. But my extended family has been very kind. Right now, my greatest pain is that my service/support dog ( a long coat Chihuahua, of all things) and my best friend and guardian angel is dying at 11 years of loving loyalty. I have prayed to my Father and Son to take me first- I am not afraid because I believe, I have unshakeable faith.

Mike

[Mtobey]

Mark uses this information as a not-so-subtle pitch for his folded backs saws. which according to him can be worked back to straight by removing the back and reinstalling it gradually until the saw is straight.  I'm sure this oversimplifies the process description.  He states that a glued back saw is very difficult to straighten, requiring a new plate and back to make a repair.  

That said I'm perfectly content with the Lie-Nielsen back saws at $100.00 less cost. You could purchase a new plate and back and still be about even in cost with the Bad Axe saw.  I'm willing to take that risk.

A saw I am NOT selling is a walnut handled full back large saw- it is unique because his son did the left hand thumb groove- a reverse of a particular Disston. It will cut crisply through anything-ebony, rosewood, punky  spruce. Mike was/is one of the finest gentleman to grace this forum. In the same league as "Timberwolf" - a knowledgeable gentleman of the highest.

To be truly honest, one of the major things that kept me from continuing to check in here was the constant fear of reading of "Jack's" passing. I don't deserve the respect and kindness he always gifted to me and others. But I know he will always have an important place in my heart.

And, Mike Brady, you aren't such a bad guy either-another gentleman of the old school.

[Mtobey]

I checked in a few times and learned of Walt's death.. Well, it will come for all of us but it is still sad and if you "ain't" then scary. Metalworking- yes, when you start at an anvil, it is really something. As a builder and repairer of chrome moly race car chassis and fabricator of attachments, I agree on how crazy it can get... I have Starrett Mics from 1" to 4+ (read 5") and not the base ones- the forged and anally certified and adjusted ones. Other than the 0-1" (I have 2) I haven't touched the rest since I quit building my own long blocks and just did final assembly(which only required 0-1" and a very high quality digital caliper.) But, I was dumb enough to do some forging of cable Damascus into knives and designed a nifty coal forge and when you get to a 300 pound anvil you should know you are in trouble. ( 90% of my work I did on a 120# US Illinois Bolt and Screw, aka "Acme") YES, I am serious, an Acme anvil. Besides the anvil, you get tongs and all kinds of bending/shaping parts that fit into the Hardy hole and quenching stuff and on and on--even the darn hammers are expensive. Then when you want to do precision work, you get into Starrett, etc.. What do you guess a .0005 bore dia. gauge costs? +/-.0001 Well except for the forging part,that is the crazy of metalworking. And, when you want to sell, you have to find someone as crazy as you with $$$$$. Price a big lathe, an hydraulic tube bender with dies from 1" to 2", by 1/4" increments. I would discuss further but I am running out of towels to soak up the tears !! ( Oh, and in race cars, in open wheel [midgets,sprints] a pre-constructed chassis of 4130 CM is $5K. I cannot count how many times I crashed and flipped, barrel rolling -bouncing- down a track. I don't even count the medical expenses--ambulances, ER's, wards, etc.)
Barry,

No problem, I will long remember him, and I have some really cool stuff I've bought from him over the years. He was always way more than fair for stuff I couldn't find easily...my 2 prized purchases from him are a Goodell Pratt bench mounted hand crank grinder and a Goodell Pratt polishing lathe. He was a one of a kind guy...

About 8 or 9 years ago he had a stroke or heart attack, but after he was back at it and in good spirits...eventually we all wear out...but lots of good memories for me with Walt, he brightened up the lives of thousands of woodworkers, IMO.

One thing good for Walt, because he knew the slippery slope better than any...and that was that Walt stayed away from metalworking...anyone that thinks woodworking is a slippery slope has most likely never found the metalworking slope...in fact, he did sell a couple dozen or so mixed bunch of measuring tools, dividers, micrometers, stuff like that...a few things he even tossed in for free to get rid of them...a wise man who knew how dangerous that metalworking slope was...I always told him if he found any more let me know, but he insisted he wasn't going to buy any... Oh, did I mention that was just about the time I was standing at the top of the metalworking slope???


Come to think of it, Walt sold me a bunch of timberframe chisels and other tools when I was starting to build my log home. I still have and are some of what I used...

R.I.P. Walt! I will never forget you, and appreciate your friendship over the years...

Cheers,
Alan - stories of the cellar...err...seller I 'spose...

[TraditionalToolworks]

I checked in a few times and learned of Walt's death.. Well, it will come for all of us but it is still sad and if you "ain't" then scary.

Indeed it comes to all of us, and I know it will come to me one day. My plan has been to build a house and work on it for the remainder of my retirement. It didn't quite go as smooth as planned, but it is still in progress. I can't advocate for woodworkers who enjoy working with hand tools, to learn how to timberframe. There are huge rewards in building your own structures.

Metalworking- yes, when you start at an anvil, it is really something. As a builder and repairer of chrome moly race car chassis and fabricator of attachments, I agree on how crazy it can get... I have Starrett Mics from 1" to 4+ (read 5") and not the base ones- the forged and anally certified and adjusted ones. Other than the 0-1" (I have 2) I haven't touched the rest since I quit building my own long blocks and just did final assembly(which only required 0-1" and a very high quality digital caliper.) But, I was dumb enough to do some forging of cable Damascus into knives and designed a nifty coal forge and when you get to a 300 pound anvil you should know you are in trouble. ( 90% of my work I did on a 120# US Illinois Bolt and Screw, aka "Acme") YES, I am serious, an Acme anvil. Besides the anvil, you get tongs and all kinds of bending/shaping parts that fit into the Hardy hole and quenching stuff and on and on--even the darn hammers are expensive.

My smithy mentor implanted the blacksmith mentality in me, you make your own tools. I had to make my own punches, scribes, hammers (only 1), form tools, etc...

That's funny with the Acme anvil, so you used the same type of anvil as Wile E. Coyote??? No way...that's too cool!

I do have quite a bit of metalworking equipment nowadays, and think I'm through the worst of the slope, but I buy most all of my stuff used. Even so, the stuff adds up! Always stuff you need that you don't have.

Then when you want to do precision work, you get into Starrett, etc.. What do you guess a .0005 bore dia. gauge costs? +/-.0001 Well except for the forging part,that is the crazy of metalworking.

Indeed, I like quality tools of any type, so the precision instruments are cool and some have some real gizmocity...

I have a few lathes (one in pieces), a couple mills, a decent amount of tooling for each...I like making tools. I have 2 Hay Budden anvils, one is 165 lbs., the other is 128 lbs. The larger one is a more recent one that has 1/3rd tool steel on the top of the anvil, the smaller one has a tool steel plate, thicker than a Peter Wright, but not like the more recent Hay Buddens...that one is literally almost pristine, I don't use the small one, I only bought it because it was so clean...

I have never used a saw by any of the recent saw guys, that was anywhere close to how good Tom Law sharpened.

He was a great sharpener, no doubt. I was just watching his video again last night, I must know all the corny jokes by now...but I learn something from it each time I watch it.

So, you have to weigh in on this Tony, you of all people must have a decent understanding of metal.

I just would like to have a "rational" discussion, my view could be wrong, I'm willing to admit that. Not looking to prove anyone wrong, just trying to understand why people believe this "marketing hype"?

Ok, Mark Harrell has a saw plate in a vise, so he's applying tension to both sides of the plate to hold it while he works on it. Then he's tapping the back on the top of the plate. He leaves a gap in the rear, and then by tapping the toe back and filling the gap, that is "retensions" the blade. So, let's say that this method really does work, I don't doubt it will get a folded back on the saw so it can do it's job, but the rest of it is where I get lost...

   

   

If this somehow did straighten a blade, how would that get transferred and be able to pass through the vise jaws? If it was to get to the tooth line, it would need to do that in this example, as best I can tell. But Mark is doing this with the plate in the vise jaws. I'm stumped how that would allow the plate to change? There has to be some type of voodoo magic going on, AFAICT.

My favorite is the pic of truing up the components. I have never had to do anything like that with a saw that I have made with a slotted back. Seems understandable to fix old saws, but it seems that the fact that the folded backs need to be fixed like this doesn't speak well for the system in general...

   

As a metalworker does this make sense to you? To me it seems like marketing hype...
Again, not trying to talk Mark down, he's the one that published that he calls "Demystifying". 

Cheers,
Alan

[Tony Z]

Indeed it comes to all of us, and I know it will come to me one day. My plan has been to build a house and work on it for the remainder of my retirement. It didn't quite go as smooth as planned, but it is still in progress. I can't advocate for woodworkers who enjoy working with hand tools, to learn how to timberframe. There are huge rewards in building your own structures.

My smithy mentor implanted the blacksmith mentality in me, you make your own tools. I had to make my own punches, scribes, hammers (only 1), form tools, etc...

That's funny with the Acme anvil, so you used the same type of anvil as Wile E. Coyote??? No way...that's too cool!

I do have quite a bit of metalworking equipment nowadays, and think I'm through the worst of the slope, but I buy most all of my stuff used. Even so, the stuff adds up! Always stuff you need that you don't have.

Indeed, I like quality tools of any type, so the precision instruments are cool and some have some real gizmocity...

I have a few lathes (one in pieces), a couple mills, a decent amount of tooling for each...I like making tools. I have 2 Hay Budden anvils, one is 165 lbs., the other is 128 lbs. The larger one is a more recent one that has 1/3rd tool steel on the top of the anvil, the smaller one has a tool steel plate, thicker than a Peter Wright, but not like the more recent Hay Buddens...that one is literally almost pristine, I don't use the small one, I only bought it because it was so clean...

He was a great sharpener, no doubt. I was just watching his video again last night, I must know all the corny jokes by now...but I learn something from it each time I watch it.

So, you have to weigh in on this Tony, you of all people must have a decent understanding of metal.

I just would like to have a "rational" discussion, my view could be wrong, I'm willing to admit that. Not looking to prove anyone wrong, just trying to understand why people believe this "marketing hype"?

Ok, Mark Harrell has a saw plate in a vise, so he's applying tension to both sides of the plate to hold it while he works on it. Then he's tapping the back on the top of the plate. He leaves a gap in the rear, and then by tapping the toe back and filling the gap, that is "retensions" the blade. So, let's say that this method really does work, I don't doubt it will get a folded back on the saw so it can do it's job, but the rest of it is where I get lost...




If this somehow did straighten a blade, how would that get transferred and be able to pass through the vise jaws? If it was to get to the tooth line, it would need to do that in this example, as best I can tell. But Mark is doing this with the plate in the vise jaws. I'm stumped how that would allow the plate to change? There has to be some type of voodoo magic going on, AFAICT.

My favorite is the pic of truing up the components. I have never had to do anything like that with a saw that I have made with a slotted back. Seems understandable to fix old saws, but it seems that the fact that the folded backs need to be fixed like this doesn't speak well for the system in general...



As a metalworker does this make sense to you? To me it seems like marketing hype...
Again, not trying to talk Mark down, he's the one that published that he calls "Demystifying". 

Cheers,
Alan

Here's how I look at it: 10 or 15 years ago, many of us visiting various websites tried our hand at making saws. Many fell by the wayside, some didn't. A guy like Mike Wezloff deserved to have success, but it always seemed to be a few inches away, while others seemed to have it fall into their laps. Think about the difference in web presentations by Mark and by Mike. Sizzle was needed to sell very similar steaks.

As far as remedial sawsmithing goes, the only guy that was truthful with fixing a saw, was Bob Smalser, another guy that I wish was still active on the web.

My opinion? My opinion is the more I learn, the more I learn I don't know! appearances can be returned to closely resemble an unaffected piece of metal, but that does not mean identical in performance qualities.

[TraditionalToolworks]

Here's how I look at it:  10 or 15 years ago, many of us visiting various websites tried our hand at making saws.  Many fell by the wayside, some didn't.  A guy like Mike Wezloff deserved to have success, but it always seemed to be a few inches away, while others seemed to have it fall into their laps.  Think about the difference in web presentations by Mark and by Mike.  Sizzle was needed to sell very similar steaks.

Honestly, I'm not very familiar with Mark Harrell too much, I've seen his saws but was never attracted to them as they resemble Disston saws. I don't place Disston on a pedestal at all. I see him more similar to Henry Ford, a great businessman who perfected manufacturing of a product to revolutionize the sales. In fact, Henry Ford was a real @$$#O!E, treated people badly, was a vocal antisemitic and just a bad person, IMO.

I would probably be considered one of the people that failed at sawmaking, not that my saws were a failure, just that I never was able to turn it into a real business like Mike did, or even Mark for that matter, I would certainly place Bad Axe in with the successful saw companies.

As far as remedial sawsmithing goes, the only guy that was truthful with fixing a saw, was Bob Smalser, another guy that I wish was still active on the web.

I used to like reading Bob's articles because he always explained things in detail, but his people skills were a bit lacking. Not that mine aren't, certainly many will tell you they are, just had some negative exchanges with Bob and don't see him as walking on water in any way. Smalzer was early to jump on the hand tool bandwagon as he used them for much of his work on boats, but his job was working in the Forest service or something like that...After that I would become acquainted with some people I consider real masters, B.Allan Mackie (R.I.P.) or Tim Bullock, my mentor and friend that taught me how to work with large timber and those folks gave me a new perspective.

Nowadays things are changing, YouTube and InstaGram are taking over where forums like Woodnet once to shined, recent times are bring an entire new breed to the web, maker types, off the grid types, many people using traditional crafting methods...you don't find the Bob Smalzer types there, those folks reigned on forums which were the early transition to the web. It was Smalzer that brought the topic on "tensioning" the blade to fix a warped/bowed plate up for a topic of discussion. Smalzer was a very important person in the early days of the web, but there are many newer people willing to share these days...the game has changed slightly.

My opinion?  My opinion is the more I learn, the more I learn I don't know!  appearances can be returned to closely resemble an unaffected piece of metal, but that does not mean identical in performance qualities.

Agreed on that, but there is really no voodoo involved, and at the end of the day some of us share, some of us learn, and some of us do both. I try to do both.

Cheers,
Alan

[knockknock]

...

Ok, Mark Harrell has a saw plate in a vise, so he's applying tension to both sides of the plate to hold it while he works on it. Then he's tapping the back on the top of the plate. He leaves a gap in the rear, and then by tapping the toe back and filling the gap, that is "retensions" the blade. So, let's say that this method really does work, I don't doubt it will get a folded back on the saw so it can do it's job, but the rest of it is where I get lost...

... Cheers,
Alan

This is how I interpret those instructions:

In the picture, you will notice that the plate is clamped in the vise at the toe. When the folded back is tapped home, it will be pulling on the plate putting it under 'tension' lengthwise, to ensure the plate is straight. If the plate was clamped at the heel and the back tapped home, it would be pushing on the plate putting it under compression lengthwise, which might result in a slight bow in the plate.

[AHill]

I used to like reading Bob's articles because he always explained things in detail, but his people skills were a bit lacking. Not that mine aren't, certainly many will tell you they are, just had some negative exchanges with Bob and don't see him as walking on water in any way. Smalzer was early to jump on the hand tool bandwagon as he used them for much of his work on boats, but his job was working in the Forest service or something like that..

Cheers,
Alan

Smalser went to college to be a forest management guy, but never really did that.  His primary profession was woodowrking (see link below).  Bob had more knowledge about old tools in his little finger than I would ever have in my lifetime.  And, he wrote articles for Fine Woodworking, wk fine tools, and who knows what other publications.  Not many of us can claim that.  I disagree that he was "early to jump on the hand tool bandwagon".  He was using hand tools long before they were popularized by Chris Schwarz and Lie Nielsen.  I agree, he'd get a bit combative sometimes, but he was often simply responding to some newbie who didn't really understand hand tools.  Exchanges like that have been responsible for more than one expert leaving this forum. 

Smalser Interview

[TraditionalToolworks]

I disagree that he was "early to jump on the hand tool bandwagon".

I meant that in the context of the Internet, you may have misunderstood me. He's a great craftsman, no question.

I agree, he'd get a bit combative sometimes, but he was often simply responding to some newbie who didn't really understand hand tools.  Exchanges like that have been responsible for more than one expert leaving this forum.

That doesn't help the craft, and that's certainly not the only reason I don't care for Bob's style. I have met other people more willing to share that weren't so bitter about things, people that enjoyed helping people to do something without having to talk down to them.

Machinists seem one of the best examples at this, so many seem bitter about people trying to learn and do something. It's not as if I dislike Smalzer, just that he represents the old school craftsmen who seem bitter and offended that a new generation can learn and get more information today that ever...even though he has shared so much over the years, he just strikes me as a bitter person at times, when I have exchanged email with him. His articles, OTOH, are very well written and don't exhibit that same bitterness I've gotten from him. And therein could be that he just doesn't like me or my personality, and that's fine with me. I'm not looking to get any approvals from anyone. 

Cheers,
Alan

[hbmcc]

Smalser Interview

That was a shock ... to see past the nasty bouncer at Sawmillcreek front door.....