A2 finish really good!

[Derek Cohen]

Aram, you do NOT need diamonds - paste or stones - for A2 steel. I have no doubt that your waterstones, whatever they are, could do a fine job. The provisor is that you do not attempt to hone full bevel faces. Reduce the steel to a micro bevel, such as by hollow grinding the bevel face. Keep the micro bevel “micro”. Those who state that they can only get a sharp edge with diamond paste simply have not developed an appropriate sharpening regime. Diamond is a fairly crude medium. It can leave deep scratches, and then one must work very hard to polish them out. Look at Paul Sellers’s efforts. He will end with 50 heavy strokes on green compound. By comparison, I end with 3 strokes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Aram]

Aram, you do NOT need diamonds - paste or stones - for A2 steel. I have no doubt that your waterstones, whatever they are, could do a fine job. The provisor is that you do not attempt to hone full bevel faces. Reduce the steel to a micro bevel, such as by hollow grinding the bevel face. Keep the micro bevel “micro”. Those who state that they can only get a sharp edge with diamond paste simply have not developed an appropriate sharpening regime. Diamond is a fairly crude medium. It can leave deep scratches, and then one must work very hard to polish them out. Look at Paul Sellers’s efforts. He will end with 50 heavy strokes on green compound. By comparison, I end with 3 strokes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks, that's useful feedback. No complaints about the results from my waterstones, but if there were a faster way, I'd be all for it.

[Timberwolf]

I would love to be educated. I use 3 water stones, 1000 grit, aoto stone (probably 4k?), and a fine stone I got at Japan Woodworker (8k? Dunno). If I used diamond paste for my A2 blades, what grits would I want, and how would that fit into my waterstone routine?

Thanks.

.......................
Start with 9 or 10, then 6 followed by 3...You could go to 1/2micron but I doubt you would be able to tell much difference between 3 and .5....Use a leather strop rough side out for the final polish.,You wont really need a paste for that because the leather has a very fine silica in it and all you are doing is removing the burr...altho I do use paste because I have it and I can....

..Your biggest problem doing it freehand is keeping the bevel flat on the lap so you don't create a tiny, rounded edge. It's a hard thing for people to do..

With a powered leather strop charged with diamond, you can actually "remove" metal, creating a keen edge where there was none.....and improperly used, you can remove an edge just as quickly..There's a skill to be learned in power stropping and it takes good practice to learn it, but once learned, I don't believe it is possible to get a sharper edge....the skill comes from being able to avoid rounding it over...They used to sell felt wheels for sharpening that fit a bench grinder and they still make them out of leather, but long before I made my first leather wheel, I was sharpening with a charged muslin buff and believe me it is fast and produces an extremely sharp edge in no time..And I still have one mounted on one side of my bench grinder.....IMO, more woodworkers should use electrons for sharpening and the time saved for woodworking.

[Aram]

.Your biggest problem doing it freehand is keeping the bevel flat on the lap so you don't create a tiny, rounded edge. It's a hard thing for people to do..

Exactly what I do on my stones....

[Hank Knight]

Aram, Derek is correct, you do not need diamonds to sharpen A2 steel, But, in my experience, diamonds are faster and I can get A2 sharper with diamonds than with other stones. Maybe I didn't stick with it long enough; but, as I said in my earlier post, I never was able to get that really fine fine finished edge until I added diamonds to my routine. I don't want to start another long discussion about what sharpening medium is the "best." But I've tried just about everything and finally settled on oil stones - where I started. I use a Norton combination crystalon and India stone and finish with a translucent Arkansas stone and a leather strop. It works well on everything but A2. I used to spend what seemed like hours honing my A2 irons on the translucent Arkansas stone but I got pretty much nowhere. I substituted a cast iron plate with 3 micron diamond paste for the Translucent Arkansas stone when I sharpen my A2 irons and it has made all the difference for me. It works wonderfully and it is fast. I think my whole routine would go faster if I used diamonds for all steps, but I've been using oil stones for years and I'm satisfied with them. The addition of the cast iron and the 3 micron diamonds paste was relatively inexpensive and it took care of my only complaint I about oil stones, I.E., my inability to hone a fine edge on A2 steel with them. Derek hollow grinds his chisels and irons and gets excellent results with modern stones. I don't think he uses diamonds at all. I respect his views and have no argument with them. The method and media you select is a matter of personal preference; it boils down to what you are comfortable with. I hone my entire bevel freehand. That's just the way I learned many years ago. It's undoubtedly slower than hollow grinding and honing a microbevel, but it suits me just fine. The addition of the CI plate and diamond paste has allowed me to get excellent edges without having to totally revamp the sharpening routine I'm comfortable with.

[Timberwolf]

Exactly what I do on my stones....

..............
It's a common problem with hand sharpening, because you are moving the tool to be sharpened, instead of moving the abrasive..and why I prefer to have the tool locked in place while the abrasive moves beneath it.....I just took a dull wood carving knife from dull to hair-popping sharp in less than one minute on this Foley Belsaw diamond lapping machine...with a 600 grit diamond lap after which I just stroked it on a hand-held leather strop for a few swipes to remove the wire edge. I tested it by singling out a single hair on my arm and touched the blade to it..it popped away into space..This machine turns a lap at about 120rpm ...I have other diamond laps from about 220 to 3,000 diamond grit. They also fit my Worksharp 3000...and my MKII..I can do the same thing on any of those....holding the tool in place while the lap does it's job....I used to sharpen all my edge tools by hand on natural and man-made stones and I have a cabinet full of them of all types.....I know they work......but IMO none of them can match the edge I can get on a tool in a tenth of the time on a diamond lap..If time is important, I am not aware of anything available to the woodworker that can beat diamonds..Just my opinion of course...I guess it is obvious that I am enthused about what they can do..

[AHill]

Wood does not care what cuts it.  The difference between the two types of steel is ease of honing and edge wear.  PM-V11 is almost as easy to hone as O1 and wears better than A2.  When hones to the same level, they will produce identical finishes.

This diagram was developed by Lee Valley when they were comparing various steels to PM-V11.

http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG

[tablesawtom]

O1, A2, D2, S2, S7, PM-V11, M2, M4 and so on, Who cares? Because I don't. Which one will hold an edge longer? Again I don't really care. How sharp is sharp? I don't know or care about that either. I do know that when my plane or chisel isn't doing what I want it to do I simply stop and sharpen and then get on with what I am doing. Like Derich I keep my micro bevels small and a few passes across the stone and I am back in business. When the micro bevels get to thick and it takes a lot of time and effort to stone the cutting edge then I regrind 

It seems to me from what I am reading, this discussion is just another means of justifying the spending a lot of money. Whether O1, A2, or PM-V11 holds an edge longer is a moot point if one can't sharpen  because a dull tool stops working. And if one can sharpen it really makes no difference because if it is dull, it still needs to be resharpened.

In my trade there is a saying which is, time in the chip. Which means no matter how much talking about how to do a job or research etc,etc goes on, one is only closer to getting done when chips are being made. And when the chips are not what they should be stop and change inserts.  In otherwards dovetail are no closer to be being done than when sawing or using a chisel. And when one or the other stops working correctly stop and sharpen.

Throwing money at a hobby won't make you a better hobbyist, only a poorer hobbyist.

Does on need a bench grinder? Yes.
Does one need two $120 CBN wheels on the grinder? Your call, for me NO.
I use a 1000 water stone and a combination 3000 and 6000 waterstone
Do I need lapping plates, and diamond paste or diamond stones and so on? again your money. 

Being on a fixed income, I need money to buy southern yellow pine for a roubo bench I am building and if I spend it on diamond plates , My bench doesn't get any closer to completion. I also need a new bandsaw blade for my bandsaw.The band saw blade wins because it can be used on many projects the wood on only one. I guess you know where the diamond plate falls.

From experience usually placing the tool in question flat on a stone and moving it around takes care of the dull problem because in a lot of cases it is just that the cutting edge has been rolled. A butcher does not use a steel to sharpen his knife he used it to straighten his cutting edge that has been rolled. 

If building things out of wood is your first love then how sharp is sharp and what will hold an edge longer is a only a distraction to take you away from your first love. If you stay true to your first love then everything else will find it proper place. In otherwards a Lie Nielsen plane with an A2 blade is good enough and if your old stanley blade is not in the best of shape replace it with the best you can afford and move on.

If you stay true to your first love then everything else will find it proper place. This is true for all of life.

Tom

[Timberwolf]

I have only been working with hand tools for about a year and a half. When you are first starting out the amount of information is overwhelming. One of the discussions that I have been confused about is the a2 vs 01 steel. I have a variety of Stanley's, all with original cutters except my no4 which has a hock 01 replacement. It has been a long time coming with my sharpening skills but in the last several months I really feel like I've gotten the hang of it. I am getting burrs and consistent beautiful glass surfaces. I recently purchased a Lie Nielsen no 3. I actually called Ron Hock to get an 01 replacement for my LN and he recommended that I keep the A2, that it wasn't worth replacing. Then I was visiting KY and I was close to Covington so I contacted Megan Fitzpatrick to she if I could stop by Lost Art Press while I was there. I was able to meet her and Chris and they are awesome people! They are both using A2 blades in their LN smoothers. So, I took my Hock 01 and my LN A2 blade. I sharpened them both on diamond stones and a Strop. I am getting the exact same results from both blades. The finish coming off of the LN and the Hock 01 both are a reflective mirror finish, no sanding needed. I tried this on maple, red oak, and pine. Maybe this is just my experience but if anybody is confused about this subject like I was, do your own comparison. I'm not sure about all A2 blades but the Lie Nielsen blades seem to be amazing!

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http://bladetest.infillplane.com/index.html

[hbmcc]

This diagram was developed by Lee Valley when they were comparing various steels to PM-V11.

http://www.pm-v11.com/Images/story_RadarChart.JPG

That is a clean, simple and impressive display! How many millions of words does it replace?