Kitchen Cabinet Build...advice appreciated

[Robert Adams]

My advise is to NOT use 2x4's for the base; use two layers of plywood glued and screwed or brad nailed together.  2x4's can shrink if you don't let them acclimate for a good long while, and when they do your base cabinets will tilt forward so anything you spill on the counter top will run off the front.  Not nice. That won't happen with plywood. 

I made my boxes out of Melamine and would do it again.  20 years old and still look new inside, including the sink cabinets.  Prefinished maple plywood is nice, too, but costs a lot more.  I wouldn't use oak plywood for the boxes; too much grain for my taste.

And I agree with your comment about wanting to make the doors and drawers.  Buying them would be cheaper, but the doors and drawer fronts are what people see.  Making them yourself will give you a lot of satisfaction; none in buying them.  If I ever build another kitchen I would be a lot more inclined to buy the boxes and make the doors/drawer fronts myself.  I can tell you there is little joy in making those boxes; just a lot of hard work moving tons (literally) of sheet goods, multiple times.  You can fill almost any space with stock cabinets and fillers, with maybe one or two custom cabinets required in some situations. 

John

           I also used melamine fo my boxes. It makes the iinside of the cabs much brighter and easier to clean. Never have liked plywood boxes especially since they will get darker over time.
            Also I did not make my boxes. Way too many to make and it's not much more to buy them either custom made or use stock ones. Manhandling that many full sheets is no fun. Iirc it was somewhere around 20 to 25 sheets I was going to need... 

           Drawers are pretty cheap to make and I made many large drawers for our kirchen. If you have just a few small ones they are not too bad to have made but if you need allot and large ones just build them. I use 1/2" bottoms in my 36" drawers and others that hold all lot of weight.

[Paul K. Murphy]

jteneyck is absolutely right. Do not use 2X4s for the toe kick. Theory tells us they will shrink, but I have actually observed it, and it was surprisingly significant. In the case I'm referring to, the cabinets moved downward 1/8" and the top laminate on the backsplash was torn from the splash. As hard as it is to believe, the caulk seams held on the wall, and the laminate released from the wood. Whether you are doing that type of countertop is not the issue. The shrinkage is significant and cannot be ignored.

[Steve N]

My advise is to NOT use 2x4's for the base; use two layers of plywood glued and screwed or brad nailed together.  2x4's can shrink if you don't let them acclimate for a good long while, and when they do your base cabinets will tilt forward so anything you spill on the counter top will run off the front.  Not nice. That won't happen with plywood. 

Absolutely

[toolmiser]

We paid a person who sells cabinets to design ours, and then I built them.  We told them upfront we only wanted a design, and we would build them ourselves.  Of course we paid for the work.  The cabinet shop also sold me some "decent" plywood for the boxes, and gave us a good deal on handles, hardware, etc.  We also purchased the counter top from them.    The design was much better than the big box stores.  You could tell that he knew to stay away from certain problems that you may not realize until completed.

I used "formica" in the sink bottom.  It will keep it nicer longer.  You will have a leak someday.

It was a long drawn out affair with my building them myself.  Lots of self satisfaction also.  It's funny to show them to someone who is a woodworker, they see them entirely different than a non woodworker.

My Father in Law home sawed the cherry lumber I used for the frames and doors.  He also appreciated the finished product.

If you have any "easy questions" I would be more than willing to try to answer.

[Cooler]

           I also used melamine fo my boxes. It makes the iinside of the cabs much brighter and easier to clean. Never have liked plywood boxes especially since they will get darker over time.
            Also I did not make my boxes. Way too many to make and it's not much more to buy them either custom made or use stock ones. Manhandling that many full sheets is no fun. Iirc it was somewhere around 20 to 25 sheets I was going to need... 

           Drawers are pretty cheap to make and I made many large drawers for our kirchen. If you have just a few small ones they are not too bad to have made but if you need allot and large ones just build them. I use 1/2" bottoms in my 36" drawers and others that hold all lot of weight.

I've used melamine.  It is heavy and does not take fasteners very well.  And glue does not work at all against the  melamine surface.  So if you need a strong joint you need to put grooves so that the glue will hold.

It is also susceptible to water damage more-so than plywood would be.  I had made a pull out drawer from this stuff for my bathroom vanity.  The faucet developed a slow leak (proprietary hoses from the faucet manufacturer failed).  One day I went to open the bottom drawer and I could only open it about 5 inches.  I was able to remove the drawer front, but the drawer box had to be destroyed to be removed.

I replaced it with a drawer box made from poplar with dovetail joints, and a water based poly finish.  Because of the need to shape the drawer to fit around the drain pipe, the wood drawer was about as quick to make (including the finishing) as the melamine drawer was.  Plus there were positions where I could not hide the fasteners.

Home Depot sells vertical versions of this stuff pre-drilled for shelves.  Which sounds handy except that lately I've been making slightly deeper upper cabinets.

[reb]

Finally got my wife to sit down and look at cabinet pictures/designs/ideas.  From the start she did not want a microwave above the stove and wanted one of those stainless steel vent hoods with the stainless tube going to the ceiling.  With the way the kitchen has to be laid out with the appliances and trying to put the built in microwave next to the refrigerator it was just not working.  She found a picture that looked nice with the mic above the stove and said "That will look nice" so now it will be above the stove...which is a lot better for our layout.  So this week I will work on the design more and see what I can come up with.  After I get it drawn up I am going to put it in sketchup and hopefully be able to decide on the heights of the uppers.

I have seen cabinets done with the frame being made and then the cabinets placed on top of them.  I really like that idea and I will do the final design that way for sure.  I like the plywood idea vs the 2x4 also, that just makes more sense.

Here is a different pic of the lowers to try and see if it works better.  Thanks for all your help!

[rwe2156]

I am not a kitchen builder but I have built a rather large kitchen and numerous other cabinets so I'll comment based on my experience.

I drew up a basic layout & consulted a kitchen designer.  In my case it was my dentists daughter who I provide services too.   If you are upfront with them that you are building the cabs, most places will still do it for a fee.  I would not go to Home Depot I would go to a kitchen designer.
She immediatey identified one big mistake in my design and was very helpful in other areas. 

My other comment is I think 30" deep cabinets is a bad idea. I see no need for cabs that deep nor 15" uppers.  Just more room for stuff to get lost in the back.  Plus I don't think losing 12" of floor space across a kitchen is necessarily a good idea, not to mention the extra cost of drawer slides. 

Once you get the design settled, you need to decide on a construction technique and material.

In my case, I went with the System 32, Euro, or Frameless technique (whatever you want to call it) and followed the book by Danny Proulx on Building Frameless Cabinets.  I am a big fan of this system and the way you build the cabs.  Not having to deal with a face frame brings some real worthwhile advantages and greatly speeds up construction.

I used double sided Melamine. You will have to learn to edge band (not that difficult) and you will need to buy that $90 DS melamine blade ;-)

I used the adjustable feet which the toe kick attaches too.  This eliminates building a base and makes levelling the cabs very easy. (This came in very handy to run electrics when we later decided to install a wall oven in one of the bases.)

My last comment is if I had it to do over, I would do drawers and NOT do doors & slide outs in the bases. I think more and more kitchen designers are going this route.

Oh, one last thing: Countertop-to-upper cabinet space is not set in stone. In my case after all the uppers where in, I discovered my wife's mixer would not fit by 1/2" so I ended up raising all the uppers. This will depend somewhat on countertop material.

Good luck, it will be well worth the effort. In my case the designer estimated $25-28K for the kitchen. I had around $6K in materials and in the process bought a nice planer and jointer.

Even still, it was a love/hate relationship at times when I finished the kitchen I didn't touch a piece of wood for almost a year but went fishing instead!!

[Roly]

Agree with more drawers instead of just cabinets with shelves.     Use the Blum slides, don't go with a generic version of them.   Tried the cheaper clones on a storage cabinet that does not get used like the kitchen drawers do, but had to replace them with Blums about 2 years later.   Make sure you get the slides before building as the Blum under mount's are a different animal as far as drawer construction, but well worth it.    I also used the UV coated plywood for most of the build. I then skinned the outside exposed with Alder ply.   The UV finish is almost bullet proof.    The shelves in the uppers are adjustable  and the leading edge of the 3/4" UV ply is solid maple so dragging something off the edge will not be an issue.   Roly

[jasfrank]

2nd the bit about forgetting the base. Just attach a level rail (doubled up 3/4 ply or 5/4 hardwood) onto the wall then use some blum leg levelers in front. It couldn't be any easier to get perfectly level cabinets, no matter how far out your floor is. And I agree with making your own doors and drawers. If you were going the buy it cheaper than you can make it route, you might as well forget the whole project, sell the saw, and just buy some boxes off CL. I get a kick out of people who say look at the cabinets I built, then proceed to tell you about how they got a great deal on those doors and drawers....

[reb]

I was looking on Rockler for the adjustable cabinet feet but was unable to find them.  Do any of you have a place that you buy them?  I did find them on Amazon but they had very bad reviews on them